From: Robert Martin on
On 2007-01-14 10:49:40 -0600, JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R(a)> said:

> OK, I looked up the book, it's 2002. I probably glanced at it at some
> point. "Agile" goes back to iterative methods first popularized and
> formalized in the late 1970s.

Iterative methods have been around since the late 50s. The term Agile
refers to a suite of practices that include iterative development.
Other practices in the Agile suite include Test Driven Develoment,
Refactoring, Simple Design, Pair Programming, Continuous Integration,
etc, etc.

> "Agile" has nothing to say about using
> one tool or another, or about RDBMS, pro or con.

The principles of Agile design have implications for how to treat the
different components of systems architecture, including DBs. The term
"pro or con" has no meaning here.

> RCM and lots of guys are playing with ideas and publishing books for
> fun and profit, RCM in particular ought to know better, ... but you
> KNOW how OOP seems to blind people to what is known and what is
> standard with RDBMS.

One day you may write a book. Then we can talk about fun and profit. ;-)

In any case, I'm not quite sure what "know better" is supposed to mean
here. Let me give you some advice though. Before you criticize an
author for not knowing better, you might want to read what he wrote.
Reading what someone else wrote about what the author wrote is less
than reliable.

Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob)��| email: unclebob(a)
Object Mentor Inc.� � � � � ��| blog:��
The Agile Transition Experts��| web:���
800-338-6716� � � � � � � � ��|

From: frebe73 on
> The problem being discussed is Payroll. If we are
> writing a payroll application we are being paid to create payroll
> behaviors.

Payroll behavior is producing a payment file to the bank, using data
supplied by employees and adminstrators. The data is the important
thing. Behavior is only the method of transforming data. Like many
other business applications, it is all about providing information or
data to different actors. The behavior of the application is low-level
stuff that is not important on higher abstractation levels.

Fredrik Bertilsson

From: topmind on
Robert Martin wrote:
> On 2007-01-13 21:08:35 -0600, "topmind" <topmind(a)> said:
> > RCM definitely appears to not be a RDBMS fan and is happier the more he
> > wraps it away.
> It has nothing to do with fan-dom. I consider RDBMSs to be valuable
> and important components of many systems. Like any component, it
> should be isolated from the others. This is just good software
> practice. (see Information Hiding).

Isolation creates duplication of concepts and can make it more
difficult to use the existing power and abilities of RDBMS. Most of the
code in your book is WASTED on translating back and forth between two
medium-to-high-level concepts: OO and relational. It is like spending
effort translating between Japanese and Spanish and back rather than
get anything real done.

The isolation is costing you complexity and code volume. I don't see
how you are claiming it better. You don't describe your scoring
mechanism that goes on in your head.

In case you swap DB vendors? That happens like once every 20 years, and
there are non-OO ways to do it also. Please focus on REAL problems, not
meteor insurance.

> --
> Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob) | email: unclebob(a)
> Object Mentor Inc. | blog:
> The Agile Transition Experts | web:
> 800-338-6716 |


From: Daniel Parker on

lilburne wrote:
> Robert Martin wrote:
> Hasn't Payroll been solved?

I think so. I think you buy them these days. I don't know of any
companies that would write their own payroll system anymore.


From: JXStern on
On 14 Jan 2007 14:48:45 -0800, "topmind" <topmind(a)>

>This may be related:
>As far as "list boxes", do you mean the kind that you have to press
>something like Ctrl-Shift to select an item? Those are goofy
>keystrokes. The browser makers should have used checkboxes next to the
>descriptions (IOW, tables :-)

On a standard list box, you chose one with a click, you may have to
press Ctrl if you want to multi-select. Other list boxes toggle all
rows with clicks, letting you multi-select perhaps more simply.

Isn't it a sign of the apocalypse that I have to explain this?