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From: Eeyore on 28 Aug 2008 21:47
OK, the driverack PA is in place. Still running 2 way until I run the
extra cables and install the 'looks nearly new inside' Studiomaster 700D
amp for the HF (need to find where I put those damn cage nuts and 6 mm
screws !).

I've yet to do any of the fancy stuff like run the RTA (any comments on
how effective it is - we got the cheap Behringer calibration mic) ? but
it sounds OK for now. I'm sure that the bass is firmer with a 35Hz
24dB/octave butterworth filter or maybe it's the Linkwitz-Riley
crossover into the tops ?

Anyway - another of its tricks is time alignment. The venue does not
have a very high ceiling and the cabs are mounted high so it struck me
AIUI that you can use this to 'bend the beams' AIUI so as to cover the
audience more effectively.

Would appreciate any advice. This is a really new one for me.

Graham

From: Rupert on 28 Aug 2008 23:27
On Aug 28, 6:47 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...(a)hotmail.com>
wrote:
> OK, the driverack PA is in place. Still running 2 way until I run the
> extra cables and install the 'looks nearly new inside' Studiomaster 700D
> amp for the HF (need to find where I put those damn cage nuts and 6 mm
> screws !).
>
> I've yet to do any of the fancy stuff like run the RTA (any comments on
> how effective it is - we got the cheap Behringer calibration mic) ? but
> it sounds OK for now. I'm sure that the bass is firmer with a 35Hz
> 24dB/octave butterworth filter or maybe it's the Linkwitz-Riley
> crossover into the tops ?
>
> Anyway - another of its tricks is time alignment. The venue does not
> have a very high ceiling and the cabs are mounted high so it struck me
> AIUI that you can use this to 'bend the beams' AIUI so as to cover the
> audience more effectively.
>
> Would appreciate any advice. This is a really new one for me.
>
> Graham

The Behringer mic is actually satisfactory and has been compared to
higher end mics recently on another forum and analyzed by SMAART. It
was very close in response to some well recognized models. The problem
is using the auto tune. It's a non-FFT based RTA and cannot take into
account room modes. DBX's own documentation warns of this. The real
bummer is that you cannot use the RTA in a manual mode to even do an
old school room ring-out. So you'll need an external RTA for that if
your ears aren't trained to know the 1/3rd octave EQ centers. LR24 dB/
oct. filters are par for the course. I'm generally not a fan of odd
order filters, but that's just me. One thing you can gain from the
steeper slope is that you can squeeze a bit more output from the LF
drivers on the tops. As far as timing, there's really no beam steering
you can do with a small setup. You can time align the drivers in the
tops and tops to the subs. But if you're flying, time alignment
between tops and subs is a bit moot because the timing will only be
correct in one spot in the room as the tops and subs are decoupled
from each other in the band overlap region. Once that happens, all the
time tweaking in the world won't fix negative interaction that
results, it merely changes where in the room it occurs.

There are a bunch of extras on the DRPA that I would avoid. Those
would be the RTA/auto tune, subharmonics synth, mains compression.
Stick with the basic crossover and EQ functions as well as the
limiters for clip protection. The other stuff is fluff that can cause
more problems then it solves. You won't find such gimmicks on the high
end speaker processors like XTA, Lake, BSS, Xilica, etc...

Rupert
From: Tim Perry on 29 Aug 2008 01:25

"Rupert" <foodsteaks(a)linkline.com> wrote in message
news:2fb524dc-ca60-45c5-b6e0-3f40445094e2(a)p31g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 28, 6:47 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...(a)hotmail.com>
wrote:
> OK, the driverack PA is in place. Still running 2 way until I run the
> extra cables and install the 'looks nearly new inside' Studiomaster 700D
> amp for the HF (need to find where I put those damn cage nuts and 6 mm
> screws !).
>
> I've yet to do any of the fancy stuff like run the RTA (any comments on
> how effective it is - we got the cheap Behringer calibration mic) ? but
> it sounds OK for now. I'm sure that the bass is firmer with a 35Hz
> 24dB/octave butterworth filter or maybe it's the Linkwitz-Riley
> crossover into the tops ?
>
> Anyway - another of its tricks is time alignment. The venue does not
> have a very high ceiling and the cabs are mounted high so it struck me
> AIUI that you can use this to 'bend the beams' AIUI so as to cover the
> audience more effectively.
>
> Would appreciate any advice. This is a really new one for me.
>
> Graham

The Behringer mic is actually satisfactory and has been compared to
higher end mics recently on another forum and analyzed by SMAART. It
was very close in response to some well recognized models. The problem
is using the auto tune. It's a non-FFT based RTA and cannot take into
account room modes. DBX's own documentation warns of this. The real
bummer is that you cannot use the RTA in a manual mode to even do an
old school room ring-out. So you'll need an external RTA for that if
your ears aren't trained to know the 1/3rd octave EQ centers. LR24 dB/
oct. filters are par for the course. I'm generally not a fan of odd
order filters, but that's just me. One thing you can gain from the
steeper slope is that you can squeeze a bit more output from the LF
drivers on the tops. As far as timing, there's really no beam steering
you can do with a small setup. You can time align the drivers in the
tops and tops to the subs. But if you're flying, time alignment
between tops and subs is a bit moot because the timing will only be
correct in one spot in the room as the tops and subs are decoupled
from each other in the band overlap region. Once that happens, all the
time tweaking in the world won't fix negative interaction that
results, it merely changes where in the room it occurs.

There are a bunch of extras on the DRPA that I would avoid. Those
would be the RTA/auto tune, subharmonics synth, mains compression.
Stick with the basic crossover and EQ functions as well as the
limiters for clip protection. The other stuff is fluff that can cause
more problems then it solves. You won't find such gimmicks on the high
end speaker processors like XTA, Lake, BSS, Xilica, etc...

Rupertr5


I second the above sentiments. My first attempt to use auto EQ was a near
disaster. Subsequent tries did not produce satisfactory results. Usually I
got an EQ result that looks like a comb... every other "knob severely
boosted or cut.

I sometimes use the delays in theater to try to align miced actors at
midstage with the mains. I'm not saying its a huge difference but in this
usage every little bit helps.

When I set mains on a stage and subs offset on the ground in front I dial in
a few feet of delay on the subs.


From: Marc Amsterdam on 29 Aug 2008 04:13
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:25:30 -0400, "Tim Perry"
<timperry(a)nospammeadelphia.net> wrote:


>
>
>I second the above sentiments. My first attempt to use auto EQ was a near
>disaster. Subsequent tries did not produce satisfactory results. Usually I
>got an EQ result that looks like a comb... every other "knob severely
>boosted or cut.
>
>I sometimes use the delays in theater to try to align miced actors at
>midstage with the mains. I'm not saying its a huge difference but in this
>usage every little bit helps.

such is called the Haas effect and for vocals it is best done by an
inserted processor. not with system delay's

>
>When I set mains on a stage and subs offset on the ground in front I dial in
>a few feet of delay on the subs.


how many feet did you say?

this is not done by just putting in some feet of delay, one should
measure that.

can be done easely though. take some pink noise, and cut that of an
octave above the high rool of of the subs.
now run it through the system, and tinker with it until the low end
reaches maximum energy.

you now have a rough setting for the delay time of your subs.


better allignment is done wtih
smaart/spectrafoh/macoh/anygoodfttanalizer

NOW never EVER say a few feet anymore!
>

From: Tim Perry on 29 Aug 2008 10:13

"Marc Amsterdam" <reply(a)newsgroup.only> wrote in message
news:q9bfb4ltmsksuqnktb6kn8hl0h6gsp5223(a)4ax.com...
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:25:30 -0400, "Tim Perry"
> <timperry(a)nospammeadelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >I second the above sentiments. My first attempt to use auto EQ was a near
> >disaster. Subsequent tries did not produce satisfactory results. Usually
I
> >got an EQ result that looks like a comb... every other "knob severely
> >boosted or cut.
> >
> >I sometimes use the delays in theater to try to align miced actors at
> >midstage with the mains. I'm not saying its a huge difference but in this
> >usage every little bit helps.
>
> such is called the Haas effect and for vocals it is best done by an
> inserted processor. not with system delay's
>
> >
> >When I set mains on a stage and subs offset on the ground in front I dial
in
> >a few feet of delay on the subs.
>
>
> how many feet did you say?
>
> this is not done by just putting in some feet of delay, one should
> measure that.
>
> can be done easely though. take some pink noise, and cut that of an
> octave above the high rool of of the subs.
> now run it through the system, and tinker with it until the low end
> reaches maximum energy.
>
> you now have a rough setting for the delay time of your subs.
>
>
> better allignment is done wtih
> smaart/spectrafoh/macoh/anygoodfttanalizer
>
> NOW never EVER say a few feet anymore!
> >
>

Marc, the venues where I can run pink noise or tones are few and far
between. That is if I don't want to get kicked out or be yelled at.

My delays are calibrated in feet, meters, or milliseconds. if I phyisicly
offset a speaker by 3 feet and dial in 3 feet of delay whats wrong with
that?


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