Prev: Sound Damping Question
Next: Attenuating line level down to guitar amp input ?
From: Slim on 31 May 2006 09:00
Gene Sweeny wrote:
> Guys,
>
> I want to get a pair of small powered cabinets for filling the audience
> area closest to the stage.
>
> For several shows a year, I have my mains up on scaffold and fairly far
> apart to cover the mid to rear audience. I have a set of older tops
> that I use occasionally for front fills but they are big, require an
> amp rack and processing.
>
> I'd like to get something less than 80 lbs that is powered. Perferably
> a 12" and 1" or 2" HF. I'd like them to sound pretty good, but they
> don't have to be the best thing in the world. The stage wash from the
> monitors muddies the sound as it is. But some crispness and detail
> when that close would be nice. Wide dispersion is preferred also. For
> comparisons sake, I have kf650z's as my mains. I consider their
> fidelity to be very high, I think something similar should be
> achievable from a low ouput powered cabinet in the nearfield.
>
> It would be nice if the things could sit on their sides as well, though
> that will obviously change the dispersion. I'd like to stay under
> $1000 each. $600 would be real nice.
>
> Stuff I've considered:
> Yorkville NX55p (or 550p or 520p used)
> FBT Maxx 4a, Jolly 12B A
> db Opera 402, 412
> RCF 312-A, 322-A, 500-A, 3001-A
> Yamaha MSR400
> Mackie SA1521z, SA1521z, SRM450
> QSC HPR152F
> EV SxA250
> Behringer B412DSP
>
> The Yorky, RCF, dB, and FBT stuff seems to be well liked and respected.
> I don't see too much about the EV SxA stuff nor QSC. I heard the
> Yamaha stuff in a store display at a music shop. Not bad but I don't
> know how they'd hold up.
>
> The Behringer as always, looks good on paper. They are super-duper
> cheap, ~$300/ea. I'm wondering if I'm not going to spend $2-3k per
> box, should I even bother getting anything else but real cheap.
>
> I've read that some of the Mackie stuff is made by RCF. RCF seems to
> be the most respected and well liked of this bunch with the FBT and
> Yorkville stuff coming in 2nd and 3rd.
>
> I like the RCF stuff and the Yorkville cabinets. Any thoughts on where
> I should be looking or experiences with this stuff?

After thinking about this for a while I remembered one of the things
about modern sound that bugs me - especially as a performer. There
seems to be a trend in the last 10 years or so to put the FOH speakers
way out in front - obviously to reduce the chance of feedback - but
then you wind up with cases like this where you have a need for a short
throw FOH fill section. It seems that the FOH speakers keep creeping
further and farther forward! This makes performing difficult because I
like to hear my voice in the mains as I sing. When space allows - I
like to put my FOH speakers just slightly forward from the front of the
stage enabling the band to hear what's going on out front as they play
and/or sing. With this old fashoned speaker placement and a slight
inward aiming from the innermost top speakers on either side - the
singers can hear better and the FOH dead zone is greatly reduced. Of
couse with HUGE concert rigs you have to move the FOH forward and use a
combination of wedges and side fills.

SIDE FILLS - my next gripe.

When you have a HUGE outdoor rig you need side fills.

Why do so many sound companys refuse to use them? I've heard every
excuse in the book over the years. It brings the stage volume up,
we're on a tight budget so you get what you paid for, blah-blah-blah.
As a performer I try to bring my A show to every event no matter what
I'm being paid. The players are supposed to suffer because the sound
company is not happy with thier pay?! This is not an isolated case -
it happens often around here. Even when there are side fills available
and ready they often refuse to turn them on!

From: shannon on 31 May 2006 18:46
Slim(a)SarasotaSlim.com wrote:
> Gene Sweeny wrote:
>> Guys,
>>
>> I want to get a pair of small powered cabinets for filling the audience
>> area closest to the stage.
>>
>> For several shows a year, I have my mains up on scaffold and fairly far
>> apart to cover the mid to rear audience. I have a set of older tops
>> that I use occasionally for front fills but they are big, require an
>> amp rack and processing.
>>
>> I'd like to get something less than 80 lbs that is powered. Perferably
>> a 12" and 1" or 2" HF. I'd like them to sound pretty good, but they
>> don't have to be the best thing in the world. The stage wash from the
>> monitors muddies the sound as it is. But some crispness and detail
>> when that close would be nice. Wide dispersion is preferred also. For
>> comparisons sake, I have kf650z's as my mains. I consider their
>> fidelity to be very high, I think something similar should be
>> achievable from a low ouput powered cabinet in the nearfield.
>>
>> It would be nice if the things could sit on their sides as well, though
>> that will obviously change the dispersion. I'd like to stay under
>> $1000 each. $600 would be real nice.
>>
>> Stuff I've considered:
>> Yorkville NX55p (or 550p or 520p used)
>> FBT Maxx 4a, Jolly 12B A
>> db Opera 402, 412
>> RCF 312-A, 322-A, 500-A, 3001-A
>> Yamaha MSR400
>> Mackie SA1521z, SA1521z, SRM450
>> QSC HPR152F
>> EV SxA250
>> Behringer B412DSP
>>
>> The Yorky, RCF, dB, and FBT stuff seems to be well liked and respected.
>> I don't see too much about the EV SxA stuff nor QSC. I heard the
>> Yamaha stuff in a store display at a music shop. Not bad but I don't
>> know how they'd hold up.
>>
>> The Behringer as always, looks good on paper. They are super-duper
>> cheap, ~$300/ea. I'm wondering if I'm not going to spend $2-3k per
>> box, should I even bother getting anything else but real cheap.
>>
>> I've read that some of the Mackie stuff is made by RCF. RCF seems to
>> be the most respected and well liked of this bunch with the FBT and
>> Yorkville stuff coming in 2nd and 3rd.
>>
>> I like the RCF stuff and the Yorkville cabinets. Any thoughts on where
>> I should be looking or experiences with this stuff?
>
> After thinking about this for a while I remembered one of the things
> about modern sound that bugs me - especially as a performer. There
> seems to be a trend in the last 10 years or so to put the FOH speakers
> way out in front - obviously to reduce the chance of feedback - but
> then you wind up with cases like this where you have a need for a short
> throw FOH fill section. It seems that the FOH speakers keep creeping
> further and farther forward! This makes performing difficult because I
> like to hear my voice in the mains as I sing. When space allows - I
> like to put my FOH speakers just slightly forward from the front of the
> stage enabling the band to hear what's going on out front as they play
> and/or sing. With this old fashoned speaker placement and a slight
> inward aiming from the innermost top speakers on either side - the
> singers can hear better and the FOH dead zone is greatly reduced. Of
> couse with HUGE concert rigs you have to move the FOH forward and use a
> combination of wedges and side fills.
>
> SIDE FILLS - my next gripe.
>
> When you have a HUGE outdoor rig you need side fills.
>
> Why do so many sound companys refuse to use them? I've heard every
> excuse in the book over the years. It brings the stage volume up,
> we're on a tight budget so you get what you paid for, blah-blah-blah.
> As a performer I try to bring my A show to every event no matter what
> I'm being paid. The players are supposed to suffer because the sound
> company is not happy with thier pay?! This is not an isolated case -
> it happens often around here. Even when there are side fills available
> and ready they often refuse to turn them on!
>

Sight lines, feedback threshold, spill, distance, clutter.
Side fills are just another monitor send, every setup is different.
One common problem is that they often give players at the side of the
performing area too much of what the guy in the center of the performing
area wants to hear from them.
Talk to the monitor engineer and tell him what you would like to hear in
the side fills.
Don't tell him "A mix of everything"
When you have a huge outdoor rig, sidefills are just too far away, you
are better off with some floor monitors behind.
If you want to hear what the crowd hears you have to sit with them, the
onstage mix will probably not ever sound the same, its there for you to
hear what you are doing within the physical limits of speakers pointed
at microphones.
You already have that stuff around you on stage.
From: Slim on 31 May 2006 20:09

shannon wrote:
> Slim(a)SarasotaSlim.com wrote:
> > Gene Sweeny wrote:
> >> Guys,
> >>
> >> I want to get a pair of small powered cabinets for filling the audience
> >> area closest to the stage.
> >>
> >> For several shows a year, I have my mains up on scaffold and fairly far
> >> apart to cover the mid to rear audience. I have a set of older tops
> >> that I use occasionally for front fills but they are big, require an
> >> amp rack and processing.
> >>
> >> I'd like to get something less than 80 lbs that is powered. Perferably
> >> a 12" and 1" or 2" HF. I'd like them to sound pretty good, but they
> >> don't have to be the best thing in the world. The stage wash from the
> >> monitors muddies the sound as it is. But some crispness and detail
> >> when that close would be nice. Wide dispersion is preferred also. For
> >> comparisons sake, I have kf650z's as my mains. I consider their
> >> fidelity to be very high, I think something similar should be
> >> achievable from a low ouput powered cabinet in the nearfield.
> >>
> >> It would be nice if the things could sit on their sides as well, though
> >> that will obviously change the dispersion. I'd like to stay under
> >> $1000 each. $600 would be real nice.
> >>
> >> Stuff I've considered:
> >> Yorkville NX55p (or 550p or 520p used)
> >> FBT Maxx 4a, Jolly 12B A
> >> db Opera 402, 412
> >> RCF 312-A, 322-A, 500-A, 3001-A
> >> Yamaha MSR400
> >> Mackie SA1521z, SA1521z, SRM450
> >> QSC HPR152F
> >> EV SxA250
> >> Behringer B412DSP
> >>
> >> The Yorky, RCF, dB, and FBT stuff seems to be well liked and respected.
> >> I don't see too much about the EV SxA stuff nor QSC. I heard the
> >> Yamaha stuff in a store display at a music shop. Not bad but I don't
> >> know how they'd hold up.
> >>
> >> The Behringer as always, looks good on paper. They are super-duper
> >> cheap, ~$300/ea. I'm wondering if I'm not going to spend $2-3k per
> >> box, should I even bother getting anything else but real cheap.
> >>
> >> I've read that some of the Mackie stuff is made by RCF. RCF seems to
> >> be the most respected and well liked of this bunch with the FBT and
> >> Yorkville stuff coming in 2nd and 3rd.
> >>
> >> I like the RCF stuff and the Yorkville cabinets. Any thoughts on where
> >> I should be looking or experiences with this stuff?
> >
> > After thinking about this for a while I remembered one of the things
> > about modern sound that bugs me - especially as a performer. There
> > seems to be a trend in the last 10 years or so to put the FOH speakers
> > way out in front - obviously to reduce the chance of feedback - but
> > then you wind up with cases like this where you have a need for a short
> > throw FOH fill section. It seems that the FOH speakers keep creeping
> > further and farther forward! This makes performing difficult because I
> > like to hear my voice in the mains as I sing. When space allows - I
> > like to put my FOH speakers just slightly forward from the front of the
> > stage enabling the band to hear what's going on out front as they play
> > and/or sing. With this old fashoned speaker placement and a slight
> > inward aiming from the innermost top speakers on either side - the
> > singers can hear better and the FOH dead zone is greatly reduced. Of
> > couse with HUGE concert rigs you have to move the FOH forward and use a
> > combination of wedges and side fills.
> >
> > SIDE FILLS - my next gripe.
> >
> > When you have a HUGE outdoor rig you need side fills.
> >
> > Why do so many sound companys refuse to use them? I've heard every
> > excuse in the book over the years. It brings the stage volume up,
> > we're on a tight budget so you get what you paid for, blah-blah-blah.
> > As a performer I try to bring my A show to every event no matter what
> > I'm being paid. The players are supposed to suffer because the sound
> > company is not happy with thier pay?! This is not an isolated case -
> > it happens often around here. Even when there are side fills available
> > and ready they often refuse to turn them on!
> >
>
> Sight lines, feedback threshold, spill, distance, clutter.
> Side fills are just another monitor send, every setup is different.
> One common problem is that they often give players at the side of the
> performing area too much of what the guy in the center of the performing
> area wants to hear from them.
> Talk to the monitor engineer and tell him what you would like to hear in
> the side fills.
> Don't tell him "A mix of everything"
> When you have a huge outdoor rig, sidefills are just too far away, you
> are better off with some floor monitors behind.
> If you want to hear what the crowd hears you have to sit with them, the
> onstage mix will probably not ever sound the same, its there for you to
> hear what you are doing within the physical limits of speakers pointed
> at microphones.
> You already have that stuff around you on stage.

I've never had the pleasure of playing a gig with a Rolling Stones size
PA rig. However, there have been many gigs with fairly big outside
festival PAs that should have put the vocals, drums, bass, and Hammond
all in the side fills in varying degrees so the band members could hear
each other play.

From: Gene Sweeny on 31 May 2006 20:40

Slim(a)SarasotaSlim.com wrote:
>
> After thinking about this for a while I remembered one of the things
> about modern sound that bugs me - especially as a performer. There
> seems to be a trend in the last 10 years or so to put the FOH speakers
> way out in front - obviously to reduce the chance of feedback - but
> then you wind up with cases like this where you have a need for a short
> throw FOH fill section. It seems that the FOH speakers keep creeping
> further and farther forward!

No, I think the trend is to fly them. The whole point is coverage.
Even coverage and have it everywhere you want an audience member
sitting. The reason for this is so that every one is at a distance
from the loudspeakers to where they are not suffering extreme SPL.
Sure, there are some acts that like that sort of thing I guess. When
you are doing sound for 5 10, 20 or 60 thousand people, you need the
speakers up in the air and pointed at the audience. By doing this, you
won't be able to cover the listeners directly infront of the stage.
Hence, fills. It makes perfect sense to me.

Generally I put my FOH cabinets on scaffold, and they are toward the
edges of the stage. I don't fly them obviously. The reason I do this
is . First, it gets the horns above peoples heads and lets the
cabinets actually cover the back of the audience and most importantly
ME when I'm at the desk. I do walk around alot, but I need to hear the
changes I make when I'm in front of the console. The other reason for
the Left to right seperation is so the stage isn't blocked by big
"ugly" black boxes. We do what we can to actually let the audience SEE
the band ya know. :-)

As far as pushing them forward, I mostly keep them right infront of the
edge of the stage. This A) gives the performers more room to move
around and B) leaves room for... SIDE FILLS. Yay.

> This makes performing difficult because I
> like to hear my voice in the mains as I sing. When space allows - I
> like to put my FOH speakers just slightly forward from the front of the
> stage enabling the band to hear what's going on out front as they play
> and/or sing. With this old fashoned speaker placement and a slight
> inward aiming from the innermost top speakers on either side - the
> singers can hear better and the FOH dead zone is greatly reduced.

I think if you have a trusted BE or company that mixes your band then
you should let them worry about how the band sounds and you focus on
giving the best show you can. If you are bringing your own sound, set
it up how ever you want, I won't complain.

You'll NEVER hear what the audience hears when you are singing. I
don't care where you are. You could be standing by me while I blend
the haphazzard noises on stage into music (just kidding) and it may
sound good to you, but it won't be what I hear or Joe Schmoe in the
front row. The problem is your vocal cords make your head resonate in
such a way that it will distort the sound of your voice from what is
comming through the speakers. Additionally, My guess is you might
notice a slight delay because unlike the audience members, YOU know
exactly when you just sang that last note, and then a few odd
milliseconds later when your beautiful voice makes it through my
digital board, processor,EQ and finally the AIR it will be delayed a
few milliseconds. There is a point at which you will notice. Lastly,
there will probably be a volume difference because you hear yourself
through your resonating cranial cavity as well as through the electric
transducers.


> SIDE FILLS - my next gripe.
>
> When you have a HUGE outdoor rig you need side fills.
>
> Why do so many sound companys refuse to use them? I've heard every
> excuse in the book over the years. It brings the stage volume up,
> we're on a tight budget so you get what you paid for, blah-blah-blah.
> As a performer I try to bring my A show to every event no matter what
> I'm being paid. The players are supposed to suffer because the sound
> company is not happy with thier pay?! This is not an isolated case -
> it happens often around here. Even when there are side fills available
> and ready they often refuse to turn them on!

First of all. I get requests for side fills and sometimes I just have
to laugh. Some bands refuse to work without a three way bi or triamped
sidefill. That's their perogative. However on a tiny little stage
it's just asking for trouble.

IMO it's a preference thing. Some performers like in ears, some like
wedges, some like side fills. Some want it all.

Well, my contract doesn't say you want it all. It says an acceptable
professional processed and triamped system with at least 12 FOH
cabinets capable of 100 dB at 100' with 6 biamped wedges and yadda
yadda yadda.

I price rentals by how much equipment I have to lug out. Side fills
are big heavy and if my contract doesn't say I need them... I don't
bring them out. If I get someone unwilling to play the gig if there
are no sidefills, I make exceptions.

I work with a brass rock and roll band quite often and one of the
things they like is take two of the wedges that are pole moutable and
puting them on stix behind the main stacks. To each their own I guess.

From: shannon on 31 May 2006 21:28
Slim(a)SarasotaSlim.com wrote:
> shannon wrote:

>> Sight lines, feedback threshold, spill, distance, clutter.
>> Side fills are just another monitor send, every setup is different.
>> One common problem is that they often give players at the side of the
>> performing area too much of what the guy in the center of the performing
>> area wants to hear from them.
>> Talk to the monitor engineer and tell him what you would like to hear in
>> the side fills.
>> Don't tell him "A mix of everything"
>> When you have a huge outdoor rig, sidefills are just too far away, you
>> are better off with some floor monitors behind.
>> If you want to hear what the crowd hears you have to sit with them, the
>> onstage mix will probably not ever sound the same, its there for you to
>> hear what you are doing within the physical limits of speakers pointed
>> at microphones.
>> You already have that stuff around you on stage.
>
> I've never had the pleasure of playing a gig with a Rolling Stones size
> PA rig. However, there have been many gigs with fairly big outside
> festival PAs that should have put the vocals, drums, bass, and Hammond
> all in the side fills in varying degrees so the band members could hear
> each other play.
>


Like I said, they are just another monitor send.
Its possible to achieve the same acoustic result in many different ways,
and putting a little stack thirty or forty feet away is not always the
best way.
 |  Next  |  Last
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Prev: Sound Damping Question
Next: Attenuating line level down to guitar amp input ?