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From: Lars Nooden on 14 Apr 2010 13:52
On 04/14/2010 08:14 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:
> not all of you are familiar with the problem.

The fact that MSO intentionally breaks ODF is very familiar to many,
perhaps everyone. That is not news.

http://www.odfalliance.org/resources/fact-sheet-Microsoft-ODF-support.pdf


http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2009/05/on-the-microsoft-office-odf-support-fiasco.html

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009050712493241

You can fix it temporarily by using the ODF plugin.

http://www.sun.com/software/star/odf_plugin/

In the long run, migration to a better application is necessary.
OpenOffice.org can be installed parallel to MSO during the transition
period.

About the formula question, OpenFormula, has already been addressed and
resolved in ODF 1.2:

http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office-formula

http://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/About_OpenFormula

As a bit of trivia you may note that ODF is the first to have formula
standard.

> What are your opinion for this interoperability problem?

You are dealing with a mismanagement problem if you have allowed MSO
2007 to get deployed.

Regina, try channeling resources into improving migration guides and
howtos, or increasing awareness about the ODF Plugin. Chasing an
undocumented, moving target like MSO incompatibility is a waste of time,
effort and resources. No one has benefited from that chase before.

Regards,
/Lars

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From: Lars Nooden on 14 Apr 2010 14:10
PS

"Allowing Office documents to be rendered very well by other peoples
browsers is one of the most destructive things we could do to the
company. We have to stop putting any effort into this and make sure
that Office documents very well depends on PROPRIETARY IE capabilities."

p1. Plaintiff's Exhibit 2991. Comes v Microsoft.
http://groklaw.net/pdf/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/2000/PX02991.pdf


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From: jonathon on 14 Apr 2010 14:29
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Regina Henschel wrote:

> I want to discuss it here, because I do not like the current behaviour
of OOo.

The issue is that Microsoft wilfully, deliberately, and intentionally
creates documents that do not conform to ODF standards and practices.

> Do you have other ideas? What are your opinion for this
interoperability problem?

Perhaps a warning to the effect that the use of microsoft products
will result in data loss is in order. Anything more is a waste of time.
Microsoft will simply break something else. Let microsoft users
suffer that data loss as punishment for using known malware.

jonathon
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From: Regina Henschel on 14 Apr 2010 16:44
Hi Lars, hi Jonathon,

Lars Nooden schrieb:
> On 04/14/2010 08:14 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:
> > not all of you are familiar with the problem.
>
> The fact that MSO intentionally breaks ODF is very familiar to many,
> perhaps everyone. That is not news.

It does not break ODF. The documents are valid ODF 1.1, at least our
validator [http://tools.services.openoffice.org/odfvalidator/] says so.
The users, who are forced by government or company policy to produce ODF
conform documents, can do this with Excel 2010. Therefore I guess that
there will be an increasing number of Excel-ods documents.

>
> http://www.odfalliance.org/resources/fact-sheet-Microsoft-ODF-support.pdf
>
>
> http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2009/05/on-the-microsoft-office-odf-support-fiasco.html
>
>
> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009050712493241
>
> You can fix it temporarily by using the ODF plugin.
>
> http://www.sun.com/software/star/odf_plugin/

Is it already adapted to Excel 2010? How will the plugin deal with the
new Excel 2010 functions?

>
> In the long run, migration to a better application is necessary.
> OpenOffice.org can be installed parallel to MSO during the transition
> period.

I worry about those using OOo. They get an ods-file and might not even
know, that it was not made with Calc, but with Excel 2010. Or they might
not be in the position to demand another format from the originator.

>
> About the formula question, OpenFormula, has already been addressed and
> resolved in ODF 1.2:
>
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office-formula
>
> http://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/About_OpenFormula
>
> As a bit of trivia you may note that ODF is the first to have formula
> standard.

As far as I know, the ODF standard does not force to use OpenFormula but
allows other formula languages too. Besides that, the current
OpenFormula draft specification does not cover all functions Excel 2010
offers.

>
>> What are your opinion for this interoperability problem?
>
> You are dealing with a mismanagement problem if you have allowed MSO
> 2007 to get deployed.
>
> Regina, try channeling resources into improving migration guides and
> howtos, or increasing awareness about the ODF Plugin. Chasing an
> undocumented, moving target like MSO incompatibility is a waste of time,
> effort and resources. No one has benefited from that chase before.

Of cause we have to consider the effort for a particular solution. But
blaming MS does not delete those documents. We need an agreement, what
Calc should do with those Excel-ods documents.

kind regards
Regina

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From: Peter Junge on 14 Apr 2010 21:45
jonathon wrote:
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> Hash: SHA1
>
> Regina Henschel wrote:
>
>> I want to discuss it here, because I do not like the current behaviour
> of OOo.
>
> The issue is that Microsoft wilfully, deliberately, and intentionally
> creates documents that do not conform to ODF standards and practices.

I'd like to clarify two terms here:
Conformance = Implementation meets Specification/Standard
Interoperability = Implementation meets Implementation

Microsoft is indeed creating valid ODF documents in regard to
spreadsheet formulas, hence they conform, Regina is right. The problem
is that these documents are not interoperable with other ODF
implementations and this is likely a PR leverage.

Two interesting readings predicting this issue:
Jim Clark <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clark_%28XML_expert%29>
raising this issue at the ODF comment ML in February 2005:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/200502/msg00000.html

Tim Bray <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Bray> in a blog about the
OOoCon 2005:
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/10/01/Open-Office-Conference
(see section "Bad Formula Trouble")

[...]

Best regards,
Peter

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