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From: David Schwartz on 10 Apr 2008 20:38
On Apr 10, 4:23 pm, Dave Uhring <daveuhr...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:42:54 -0700, David Schwartz wrote:
> > On Apr 9, 8:12 pm, ibupro...(a)painkiller.example.tld (Moe Trin) wrote:

> >> NOTE: Posting from groups.google.com (or some web-forums) dramatically
> >> reduces the chance of your post being seen. Find a real news server.

> > Do you have some kind of statistical evidence to demonstrate these
> > "dramatically reduced" chances?

> Many of us simply killfile posts containing "Message-ID: googlegroups.com"
> due to the immense amount of spam and other abuse originating there.

1) Who is "us"?

2) Clearly you don't since you are replying to me, so this is some
"us" that doesn't include you?

3) Do you have any evidence that this "many of us" consists of
anything more than a couple of cranks?

4) The claim that google is somehow not a "real news server" is just
bizarre prejudice, akin to arguing that anything without a floppy
drive is not a "real computer".

DS
From: David Schwartz on 11 Apr 2008 18:33
On Apr 11, 2:08 pm, Dave Uhring <daveuhr...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

> And a windows user here to troll and provide no useful input.

In what twisted world is this not trolling:

>>NOTE: Posting from groups.google.com (or some web-forums)
>>dramatically reduces the chance of your post being seen.
>>Find a real news server.

but this is:

>>Do you have some kind of statistical evidence to demonstrate
>>these "dramatically reduced" chances?

And, by the way, I use Windows on my desktop machines and Linux on my
servers. I manage about ten desktops and about thirty servers. Some of
my code was accepted into the Linux kernel in 2002.

DS


From: Bit Twister on 11 Apr 2008 18:47
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:27:17 -0700 (PDT), David Schwartz wrote:
>
> It's a serious question. Who are you talking about? It obviously
> doesn't include you, since you read my post, and I usually post from
> Google.

Well true enough there. Sorry you did not like the advice given.

> In other words, this is an "us" that doesn't include you.

Of course.

> Because you are the one making a claim, and I am the skeptic. If you
> don't have any evidence to support your claim, why should anyone take
> it seriously?

You can take my word that Moe is pretty honest.
You can also use http://groups.google.com/advanced_search and place
the author in the Author box to check on anyone. Two example results:
Results 1 - 10 of about 20,700 for author:bit author:twister
Results 1 - 10 of about 6,410 for author:moe author:trin


I for one, block posts from google in some news groups,
(comp.os.linux.setup, news.software.readers)

There was a fair thread about how to try blocking the spew in one
group and general convention was to kill on google posts.


> What is a "real" news service?

For *me*, it would be a server who's abuse admin would terminate the
offender upon complaints and provide the ip of the poster in the post header.
That would allow me to also send abuse complaints to poster's ISP to see if
I could get his account terminated. :-)

From: AZ Nomad on 11 Apr 2008 18:54
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:38:53 -0700 (PDT), David Schwartz <davids(a)webmaster.com> wrote:
>On Apr 10, 4:23 pm, Dave Uhring <daveuhr...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:42:54 -0700, David Schwartz wrote:
>> > On Apr 9, 8:12 pm, ibupro...(a)painkiller.example.tld (Moe Trin) wrote:

>> >> NOTE: Posting from groups.google.com (or some web-forums) dramatically
>> >> reduces the chance of your post being seen. Find a real news server.

>> > Do you have some kind of statistical evidence to demonstrate these
>> > "dramatically reduced" chances?

>> Many of us simply killfile posts containing "Message-ID: googlegroups.com"
>> due to the immense amount of spam and other abuse originating there.

>1) Who is "us"?
everybody who is sick and tired of all the spam that google-groups spews due
to their spammer friendly method of giving accounts to any spammer who wants
one.

Look up almost any discussion of killfiles and score files and you'll see GG being
filtered.
From: David Schwartz on 12 Apr 2008 06:10
On Apr 11, 3:47 pm, Bit Twister <BitTwis...(a)mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> You can take my word that Moe is pretty honest.

I tend not to agree, at least not based on this comment:

"NOTE: Posting from groups.google.com (or some web-forums)
dramatically
reduces the chance of your post being seen. Find a real news server."

> For *me*, it would be a server who's abuse admin would terminate the
> offender upon complaints and provide the ip of the poster in the
> post header. That would allow me to also send abuse complaints
> to poster's ISP to see if I could get his account terminated. :-)

There are huge trade-offs between privacy, abuse handling, and the
availability of human labor. I've seen google strike the balance wrong
in each possible direction more than once.

I've seen no credible evidence that there's this mass of intelligent
people who killfile posts through google. I've been posting through
google and other news servers for many, many years and have seen
google's reach be precisely the same as everyone else's.

I'm not as quick to give up on the value of anonymous speech as you
are, and if you make the administrative overhead of allowing anonymous
speech too high, it will cease to exist. It's very hard for non-free
services to offer anonymous speech because a lot of people have no
anonymous way to pay.

DS
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