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From: dennis on 16 Jun 2008 04:44


"jayjwa" <jayjwa(a)vdrl.ath.cx.invalid> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.06.16.05.30.48.588378(a)vdrl.ath.cx.invalid...


> I just spent 4 hours trying to help someone get their Windows XP to
> connect to a wireless router and then get their laptop and the router all
> talking WPA. It was anything but easy: I kept getting "Wizards",
> hand-holding this, training wheels that, when all I wanted was to set WPA
> on the wireless network.


You did it wrong then.. for future reference..

log into the router and set WPA like you would with linux.
Turn on XP
It will then say wireless networks have been found, do you want to connect?
choose the one you have just set
enter the key
done.

The only way to make it harder is if you hide the ssid which is pointless
and just makes life harder.

> In Linux, that's like one command on a command
> line. But there I was, awash in a river of GUI and menus up the wha-zoo.
> The laptop auto-connects alright - to someone else's network! Let's hope
> they didn't mind too much.

So change it so it doesn't.
One setting, no wizards needed.
You can even do it using the command line if you want.

Don't blame XP because you don't know what you are doing, just as you
wouldn't want someone blaming linux if they didn't know what they were
doing.



From: Sir Robin on 17 Jun 2008 19:29
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 06:15:15 -0400, "jim" <jim(a)home.net> wrote:

>>> That's right! Let's get all self-righteous and pissy instead of enabling
>>> new linux users to get the work done that they need to.
>>
>> No question of self-righteousness - Windows /deliberately/ makes
>> networking
>> obscure in an effort to prevent other OSs connecting to it. MS want you
>> to
>> be locked-in to their rubbish forever.
>
>Unless Linux gets simple enough for the Windows masses to use, they'll get
>their wish.

I have no doubt that it will get simple enough in every place where it is not
yet just as simple or even simpler... There are many things (not only, but
also including compatibility with various Windows specific areas, like NTFS
support) that 5 yers ago were more difficult (if not impossible) to set up
than in windows that are now simpler or just as simple. The development has
been amazing in spee and quality (not tomention features of linux that windows
dont even know about).

What ever is still lacking or harder will soon be just as easy. The developers
do know that it's a must for linux to be adopted also by the great majority
who dont want harder to learn (even if it's often more efficient when you do
learn) on desktops.

>>>> Networking in Linux is /trivially/ simple compared to Windoze
>>>> networking.
>>>
>>> You are soooooo right! Hell it'd take 2, maybe 3, clicks to see the
>>> shares on any Windows system.
>>
>> It takes /1/ /click/ to see other machines on /this/ network, with
>> /proper/
>> networking enabled straight "out of the box".
>
>I am installing OpenSuse right now. If that doesn;t work right out of the
>box, I give.

In all this time you could have stayed with one distro and learned how to do
it the "hard" (not that hard) way long time ago and could be using the system
now. If you are willing to spend this much time installing different distros
to just check it they support it out of the box would you not have the time to
learn how to set it up if it does not work out-of-the-box? Would have taken
less time...

If it helps, I can advice you how to maunt a known windows share from terminal
- there are other ways but I have not needed them so I dont remember off-hand
how to search for shares, how to mount them fram GUI, but I know how to mount
them and after that they are available on any file manager.

Other people (and guides) have information on how to do this and more in other
ways, I have just not felt the need to use other ways so I have not opent time
te check them out. I do know that there is GUI tools supporting these things.

>>> Here, it evidentally dosen't work out of the box at all.
>>
>> You just have to /tell/ your machine what the others are called, and give
>> passwords to them. It's trivially simple, and no more difficult than if
>> you were setting up a Windoze network with some measure of "security"
>> (there's actually no such thing as "Windows security" - it's very easily
>> breached).
>
>If I join a network using Windows I don;t have to know the names of the
>other machines. And, I only have to know the usernames and passwords if the
>shared folders are password protected.

Naturally - you should be able to search them in Linux too, it does support
that, but then again, you propably do know the IP's and share names on your
local network so you could set up the system to automotically mount them with
this information too? Naturally linux also requires you to use name/password
(ie. credentials) if the share is not available without them.

>The folders on my home network are shared and NOT password protected. I
>should be able to see them with no problems - right out of the box.

You have a big thing with this "out of the box" thing. Even if you dont get
the support out of the box, you will have more things working out of the box
than you will with windows. If you insist them go ahead and keep looking a
distro that has this - I'm quite sure that there is such. However if I were
you, I would spend (less) time and learn how to set it up if not working out
of the box and after that you would not have to warry about that (and you
would know how to set it up again if you were to install another system on
your network with linux).

If you want to use linux, believe me, setting it up is not a big issue if it
really is not yet supported by major distros "out of the box" or at least by
very simple graphical tool.

Again, if you want, I can give instructions how to set up mounting a share
from terminal window - you have to set it up only once and after restarting
computer you can have it mount the share autamtically on boot or with one
command on command line after the boot. Other that that, I never have needed
anything more, that allows accessing the share, which I believe is the only
really necessary thing.

>>> Yep. Having to put together your OS is a hell of an improvement to just
>>> getting to work!
>>>

>>>> Perhaps you need to read the manuals!
>>>
>>> A link to solve these issues would be nice
>>
>> Fair enough:
>>
>> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SettingUpSamba
>>
>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=202605
>
>I have Google so much that they banned my IP. All roads point to the same
>linux tangled instructions of setting up Samba with machine names and
>usernames and passwords. None of which is needed for shared folders without
>passwords in Windows.

Scrape off the username/password options if they are not needed. You dont have
to set those if your share is available without them - they are just options
that can be set, not must.

>jim

--
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From: Sir Robin on 17 Jun 2008 21:48
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:44:49 +0100, Christopher Hunter
<chrisehunter(a)NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>jim wrote:
>
>> Windows is used in more businesses in a single country than all linux
>> installations in the world.
>
>Err... No! There are /many/ more computers (for example) in China than
>there are in the USA. All the Chinese machines run their variant of Linux.

Nope, "all" is quite an overstatement and overstatements, as all lies do no
benefit for linux - unless if by "all" your mean computers used by intitutions
of government.

>It's getting towards *Game* *Over* time for Windows.

Hopefully and IMHO eventually this then again will happen in time.

>> With Windows, you just get in a drive. With Linux, you have to assemble
>> the transmission, run all over town finding parts for the air
>> conditioning, radio, etc..
>
>Wrong. With Windoze you get "Notepad", a crippled web browser and that's
>about it. With any competent distribution of Linux, you get a /full/
>complement of programmes.

Excellent point. Vista comes on DVD wile some distros can still be installed
from sigle CD and come with huge amount of all kinds of software from little
used obscure servers to most common office program package after MS Office
(hopefully in future The most common). With Windows you have to intall them
afterwards - and no, there is no program where you can select "WinSCP" and
press install but you have to search them from meb pages, dowload them and run
the installer. This is to be done for every application you can download for
free - there is NO any kid of repository system.

>With Windoze, you have to get all the obscure hardware drivers for your
>equipment - you're /really/ screwed if you want to use "Vista" - there are
>almost *no* drivers available for most hardware.

And with lot of hardware you dont get only what yau need but usually a bloated
pack of software that you prapably never end up using.

Still to be truthfull, there is certain hardware types with very support for
very limited amount of products and couple video cards that you need to
install a preprietary drivers for (however I hear that nowdays even ATI and
nvidia drivers are available straight from repositorys on many distros so you
no longer have to hand-install them - which was a pain for many with ATI
drivers).

--
***/--- Sir Robin (aka Jani Saksa) Bi-Sex and proud of it! ---\***
**/ email: robsku(a)fiveam.NO-SPAM.org, <*> Reg. Linux user #290577 \**
*| Me, Drugs, DooM, Photos, Writings... http://soul.fiveam.org/robsku |*
**\--- GSM/SMS: +358 44 927 3992 ---/**
"Kun nuorille opetetaan, ett� kannabis on yht� vaarallista kuin heroiini,
niin tokihan he oppivat, ett� heroiini on yht� vaaratonta kuin kannabis."
From: Sir Robin on 17 Jun 2008 21:56
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 21:34:22 +0000 (UTC), Davorin Vlahovic
<nrubA(a)ylf.krs.ref.rh> wrote:

>On 2008-06-09, Christopher Hunter <chrisehunter(a)NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> As far as big business is concerned, IBM is planning on dumping linux for
>>> Macs.
>>
>> Hahaha! Don't be so silly. IBM /sponsor/ Linux development, and
>> abhor /anything/ to do with Apple.
>
>No, no, he's actually right on this one.
>
>http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/04/16/ibm-steps-up-mac-migration-experiment-with-good-feedback

Ah, so they are not at all going away from Linux. Quote:
"Combined with the ability to run Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows, and their
award-winning industrial design, Apple computers are starting to win over IT
departments.n"


--
***/--- Sir Robin (aka Jani Saksa) Bi-Sex and proud of it! ---\***
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"Sir Robin valehtelee j�rjestelm�llisesti" - Nikolas M�ki
From: Sir Robin on 18 Jun 2008 01:26
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:55:49 -0400, "jim" <jim(a)home.net> wrote:

>
>"Baldylocks-Ubuntu" <me.signup(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2461940.rE16qhh1no(a)baldylocks...
>>
>> On Monday 09 Jun 2008 07:54 jim licked a pencil and jotted:
>> I installed ubuntu on yet another PC yesterday. p4 1.7 with 768MB ram and
>> an
>> nVidia Geforce MX440 64MB graphics card
>>
>> It took 25 minutes to install and 1 hour after putting the cd in I had it
>> fully updated, the proprietary nvidia drivers and a bunch of useful apps
>> installed and the compiz 3D desktop running with all the bells and
>> whistles. It was networked and I was running its command line from my pc.
>
>But were you accessing your PCs shared, unprotected folders from your linux
>box WITHOUT having to set up Samba

You dont need Samba server for accessing shares, only smbfs installed and that
needs no configuring. Ubuntu for exaple provides graphical network setup tool
for setting workgroup and such that you need to have set up in Windows too and
it allows you to browse network shares from desktop.

>- using a lot of info that Windows users
>may not have (if they are connnecting to an open network) and have never
>needed to simply share some silly files.

3 steps on ubuntu to get what you want. 3rd one is to browse, 2 first are
extremely simple.

>> On my main PC, when I did a fresh install to upgrade from version to
>> version, it took about half an hour to get back to my original customised
>> desktop with all my settings back as they were, right down to contents of
>> my clipboard, my subscribed newsgroups and what articles were read/unread.
>>
>> When my mobo died previously I built a new PC, transferred my primary hdd
>> across and was up and running in about 2 minutes from pressing the button.
>> Old one was a an Athlon new one was a P4. Try that trick with windows.
>
>I do that all of the time with Windows and Acronis.

And it "just works" no matter what hardware changes and how many times? I have
heard about this license verification thing - I know that there are pirate
versions where it has been hacked though but I doubt that it "just runs" like
my fedora which has been on very different computers (basically only the hard
disk where it was installed has been same all the time).

>> I have been using Linux for about a year.
>>
>> If you are serious about wanting to get away from Windows, stop whining
>> and
>> open your mind to a *different* way of doing things and you will fine, you
>> will find lots of people willing to help, myself included.
>
>I don't mind different...as long as it is no more difficult than the way I
>was doing it. If it wastes my time or requires steps and info that I did
>not need with the old method, then the different way is a step backwards.

"Info that I did not need" - holy hell, there will certainly be info that you
need with linux and that windows has no clue about - and the other way around.
That holds true with all OS's and even with Windows versions distant enough
(ie Win95 & WinXP). If that scares you, stick with one version of one OS.

I say that if you dont do power user stuff then the differences are smaller
than benefits. And about power using, Linux provides possibilities that some
may need more learning than first seem good but enable you to control and do
work on efficient ways not easily if at all even possible with windows. But if
you only need functionality that you have on windows - most propably with
right distro you get it, it may be different, it may need to be learned but it
does not take any amount of time that is actually worth consideration. You go
Ubuntu, that should suit you quite well and has VERY good support available.

>I use PCs to be more productive. To pass the test with me, the new,
>different method must be faster and MORE convenient than the old method. If
>not, it fails.
>
>I don't adopt things just for the sake of being different.

You must still accept that there are differences that do not make it harder
nor easyer. You surely understand, no "start" menu, user management and such
slightly different and placed possibly on separate menu from regular
application, etc...

Differences like these are to be expected, hell there are such between every
release of windows too.

>> If you are just a troll then I am pissed off at myself for wasting time
>> replying.
>
>Linux ng's are one of the worst on the net for calling someone a "troll" for
>expressing real life, unflattering examples of Linux failing to pass the "if
>is faster and easier than X" test.
>
>If you can't take hearing the truth from regular end users like myself,
>maybe you're backing the wrong horse.

I dunno, considering how easy I found it to be to setup what you have asked
for under ubuntu...

--
***/--- Sir Robin (aka Jani Saksa) Bi-Sex and proud of it! ---\***
**/ email: robsku(a)fiveam.NO-SPAM.org, <*> Reg. Linux user #290577 \**
*| Me, Drugs, DooM, Photos, Writings... http://soul.fiveam.org/robsku |*
**\--- GSM/SMS: +358 44 927 3992 ---/**
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