Java sucks, Perl Rules.
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From: Patrick May on 28 Jan 2006 15:02 "opalpa(a)gmail.com opalinski from opalpaweb" <opalpa(a)gmail.com> writes: > Java is not wordy in the sense of having a large syntax tree with > many options. C++ is three times larger (i have not checked this, > but read it in article). Do you have a cite for this? In my experience, for a given amount of functionality C++ is somewhat less verbose than Java. > Besides there is little difference in the quantity of key presses > someone expert at text editing needs to carry out between the > various languages. This is not the case. C++ and Java are probably of the same order of magnitude in terms of verbosity. This is partly due to the fact that Java was designed to provide a certain level of comfort to attract C++ programmers and partly due to their similar static type systems. Perl and other "scripting" languages can be significantly less verbose. The most expressive language I've used is Common Lisp. This is a factor of both its type system and its macro facility that supports creation of syntactic abstractions. Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ S P Engineering, Inc. | The experts in large scale distributed OO | systems design and implementation. pjm(a)spe.com | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, CORBA, UML)
From: Roedy Green on 28 Jan 2006 18:14 On 28 Jan 2006 08:04:12 -0800, atbusbook(a)aol.com wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >why dose java have to be so wordy. it is the opisit of lisp and you >spend more time typeing than thinking Because it was originally designed to program set-top boxes and the guys who designed it were primarily interested in the JVM, not the Java language. They were not application programmers. The mindless verbosity of Java does not start piling up until you write a gui with listeners and you have 10 pages of code to display single screen. The solution is not to maintain such code as ASCII text, but as a tree structure where you can open and close various nodes to see detail. much would be done by tick-off boxes rather than code. E.g. select fonts, colours, borders, icons etc for various components. the high level "routine" would be the display itself. You would right click on components to get details about them and their events. see http://mindprod.com/projects/scid.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
From: opalpa@gmail.com opalinski from opalpaweb on 28 Jan 2006 18:16 > Do you have a cite for this? In my experience, for a given > amount of functionality C++ is somewhat less verbose than Java. I'm talking about the size of the grammar, the complexity of the language. I did not locate the article I read previously but found some other comparisons of java and C++ grammars. This is an extract: "because development of Java grammar parser is not a simple task (even through Java grammar is simpler and less ambiguous than C++ grammar)" from http://www.ispras.ru/~knizhnik/jlint/ReadMe.htm I'm sure java's grammar grew in size with the addition of enums, generics, etc. I wonder which grammer is larger now and by how much. > This is not the case. C++ and Java are probably of the same > order of magnitude in terms of verbosity. I'm not talking about the resulting source code's verbosity. I'm talking about the amount of keys (raw count) I need to hit in order to get a lot of java code characters on screen. I am comparing this quantity to the amount of keys I need to hit to get, admitadly shorter, perl code. Being a competant user of editors I frequently end up with considerably more characters on screen then number of keys hit. I'm saying that number of characters and verbosity are very minor considerations when it comes to generating code fast. Opalinski opalpa(a)gmail.com http://www.geocities.com/opalpaweb/
From: Michael Redlich on 28 Jan 2006 22:54 atbusbook(a)aol.com wrote: > java is a staticly typed single pardigram languige thats why it sucks Can someone tell me why we are comparing apples to oranges? If the title of this thread was "Java Sucks, C++ Rules," then I can see having some kind of intelligent debate. Otherwise, silly statements such as: "Java is a statically typed language, therefore it sucks." are completely stupid IMHO. As Hal pointed out, you wouldn't use Perl to write the next version of Star Office, Microsoft Office, or Fred's Office. Perl is simply an excellent tool for extracting information from files using regular expressions. We all know what can be developed using Java. It all boils down to selecting the best language to solve a particular task. So let's send this troll packing, and move on to discussing Java issues. Go away, troll... Mike. --- ACGNJ Java Users Group (http://www.javasig.org/)
From: Patrick May on 29 Jan 2006 07:08
"opalpa(a)gmail.com opalinski from opalpaweb" <opalpa(a)gmail.com> writes: > > This is not the case. C++ and Java are probably of the same > > order of magnitude in terms of verbosity. > > I'm not talking about the resulting source code's verbosity. I'm > talking about the amount of keys (raw count) I need to hit in order > to get a lot of java code characters on screen. I am comparing this > quantity to the amount of keys I need to hit to get, admitadly > shorter, perl code. Being a competant user of editors I frequently > end up with considerably more characters on screen then number of > keys hit. I'm saying that number of characters and verbosity are > very minor considerations when it comes to generating code fast. You're making my point for me: Java is more verbose. The fact that you've come up with techniques to avoid some of the negative consequences of that verbosity indicates just how bad the situation is. If you spent the same amount of time adjusting your editing style for Perl, for example, is there any reason why you wouldn't see a similar reduction in the amount of typing required to deliver similar functionality? Regards, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ S P Engineering, Inc. | The experts in large scale distributed OO | systems design and implementation. pjm(a)spe.com | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, CORBA, UML) |