Long Term Hard Drive Storage
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From: Dave on 6 Apr 2008 04:16 Justin wrote: > What if one took a portable enclosure, stuffed a 200GB drive in there, > filled it with his AVCHD footage, stuck it in the factory box, with a > few Silica gel packs, maybe wrapped it with one of those lead liners > that look like trash bags and stored it (properly labeled of course)? > > Is that idea stupid? > Forget about cost for now. I think your biggest issue would be: 1) Finding something to read the hard disk or DVD. In a few decades time, I doubt it will be easy to find something to read a SATA disk, in much the same way as you would have a very hard time finding a computer to read an 8" floppy disk. Same goes for a DVD storage - do you really believe in a few decades time anything will read a DVD? The SCSI interface has to date been more stable than any other. 2) Decay of electrolytic capacitors is likely to be an isssue. 3) I assume the most likely things you would want to keep over decades would be photographs. Experience has shown images in stone have lasted thousands of years. Getting the images carved into stone or metal would probably be best. 4) Getting images painted by an artist would be very good and not particularly expensive. We know many paintings have lasted centuries. Not as long as stone/metal to date, but more practical and gives better colour information. 5) Experience has shown many photographs have lasted well when using wet chemistry - silver based photographic medium. 5) Nobody really knows how well digital data will store. My suggestions for the best chance would be to i) Keep on a few different media - optical, magnetic. ii) Transfer it to current technology every 5-10 years. Keep the old media anyway. iii) Keep data in different locations. iv) I dont think external magnetic fields would be an issue at all, but I know mu-metal would be more suitable than lead for that purpose. But that really would be the last of your worries. v) I used to work developing protection systems for nuclear electromagnetic pulse. I am aware the aim would be to explode a bomb that would damage electronics, but not kill people. So after an EMP strike, food might not be the issue you suspect. On the assumption you want to store photographs, I suggest stone > oil painting > photographs > digital storeage. In principle, digital storage would not degrade over time, but I think the chances of the images lasting in practice is a lot less than with phtographs or oil painting.
From: Al Dykes on 6 Apr 2008 07:36 In article <c1rfv31t8r7aic1lmf7ug4skscdcmbap99(a)4ax.com>, Franc Zabkar <fzabkar(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote: >On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:01:15 -0400, Justin ><Justin(a)NobecauseIhatespam.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: > >>So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current MiniDV >>camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I >>have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a >>Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9 >>years old. >>Stunning. >>So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived. >>Apparently new digital tapes will fare better. > >I wouldn't rely on tape, even in digital format, as this medium is >vulnerable to mechanical damage. And unless you a are dealing with professional tape equipment, the chances of getting a compatible drive hardware and restore application that works on a machine you own years from is close to zero. Tape storage lifetime has it's own issues. I know in the past, the manufacturer quoted 10 years under controlled conditions. -- Al Dykes News is something someone wants to suppress, everything else is advertising. - Lord Northcliffe, publisher of the Daily Mail
From: Arno Wagner on 6 Apr 2008 08:23 Previously Al Dykes <adykes(a)panix.com> wrote: > In article <c1rfv31t8r7aic1lmf7ug4skscdcmbap99(a)4ax.com>, > Franc Zabkar <fzabkar(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote: >>On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:01:15 -0400, Justin >><Justin(a)NobecauseIhatespam.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: >> >>>So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current MiniDV >>>camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I >>>have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a >>>Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9 >>>years old. >>>Stunning. >>>So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived. >>>Apparently new digital tapes will fare better. >> >>I wouldn't rely on tape, even in digital format, as this medium is >>vulnerable to mechanical damage. > And unless you a are dealing with professional tape equipment, the > chances of getting a compatible drive hardware and restore application > that works on a machine you own years from is close to zero. > Tape storage lifetime has it's own issues. I know in the past, the > manufacturer quoted 10 years under controlled conditions. Tape has the advantaghe, that its characteristics are very well known. If you use professional archival tape, it will live as long as the manufacturer claims. As to restore application, use GNU tar. It has been around 30 years or so, and it will still be arounf in 50. For the data format itself, again use simple, well documented formats. ASCII, gif/TIFF/png, PostScript, html. It may be a good idea to include source code for converters. Stay away from any closed and/or complicated format, such as all the Microsoft File formats. Using them is asking to pay a huge amount to have them professionally converted. (And I have been tempted to prepare a company that does this for a long time now. Just so boring....) Arno
From: Al Dykes on 6 Apr 2008 09:05 In article <65rtlgF2hj81rU1(a)mid.individual.net>, Arno Wagner <me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >Previously Al Dykes <adykes(a)panix.com> wrote: >> In article <c1rfv31t8r7aic1lmf7ug4skscdcmbap99(a)4ax.com>, >> Franc Zabkar <fzabkar(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote: >>>On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:01:15 -0400, Justin >>><Justin(a)NobecauseIhatespam.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: >>> >>>>So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current MiniDV >>>>camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I >>>>have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a >>>>Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9 >>>>years old. >>>>Stunning. >>>>So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived. >>>>Apparently new digital tapes will fare better. >>> >>>I wouldn't rely on tape, even in digital format, as this medium is >>>vulnerable to mechanical damage. > > > >> And unless you a are dealing with professional tape equipment, the >> chances of getting a compatible drive hardware and restore application >> that works on a machine you own years from is close to zero. > >> Tape storage lifetime has it's own issues. I know in the past, the >> manufacturer quoted 10 years under controlled conditions. > >Tape has the advantaghe, that its characteristics are very well known. >If you use professional archival tape, it will live as long >as the manufacturer claims. > >As to restore application, use GNU tar. It has been around 30 >years or so, and it will still be arounf in 50. For the data >format itself, again use simple, well documented formats. ASCII, >gif/TIFF/png, PostScript, html. It may be a good idea to include >source code for converters. Stay away from any closed and/or >complicated format, such as all the Microsoft File formats. >Using them is asking to pay a huge amount to have them >professionally converted. (And I have been tempted to prepare >a company that does this for a long time now. Just so boring....) > >Arno Good points, all, with the addition that the backup has to be done with tar, also. Tar can also be used to backup to CD/DVD media. As Arno says, a tar saveset will be understood for as long as anyone cares to care about it. Thought has to be given to the file formats of the files in the tar saveset. One advantage of software over hardware is that it can run on furure machines with just a little on the part of some programmer. Whatever you do, test test test. Try to restore on a machine as unlike yours as possible. A Windows tar backup can be tested on a MAC or a Unix box. Emulation is a big win for archivists. It's safe to say that even after x86 hardware is found only in museums, all versions of Microsoft Windows will be running nicely in emulation much faster than it does natively, today. -- Al Dykes News is something someone wants to suppress, everything else is advertising. - Lord Northcliffe, publisher of the Daily Mail
From: Al Dykes on 6 Apr 2008 09:15
In article <65p9q9F2h4bjeU1(a)mid.individual.net>, Arno Wagner <me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >Previously Justin <Justin(a)nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote: >> So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current MiniDV >> camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I >> have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a >> Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9 >> years old. >> Stunning. >> So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived. >> Apparently new digital tapes will fare better. So I'm guessing the next >> time I really checkout the stuff I'm recording to MiniDV will be the >> 2025 or thereabouts. >> AVCHD camcorders don't use tapes as we all know. Would copying the >> footage to a portable Firewire/ESATA/USB2 hard drive and storing that >> enclosure for a few decades be feasible? > >Depends. You might run itdo component limitations, like capacitor >lifetime (5-10 years), lubrrication fluid increasing its viscosity >(no idea) and the like. HDDs are not removable media designed >for long-term storage. > >> How well do hard drives last when they're not being used? > >I think "unknown" is accurate information here. > >> Will the magnetic information deteriorate? > >That should not be an issue. > >> What about magnetic fields? > >Again not an issue. > >> What if one took a portable enclosure, stuffed a 200GB drive in there, >> filled it with his AVCHD footage, stuck it in the factory box, with a >> few Silica gel packs, maybe wrapped it with one of those lead liners >> that look like trash bags and stored it (properly labeled of course)? > >See above. > >> Is that idea stupid? > >Not stupid, but with a lot of unknowns. > >> Forget about cost for now. > >Then I would strongly advise using archival tape or MOD. >Both have known long-term aging characteristics. > MOD = Magneto-Optical Disk. This was the gold standard for archival storage when I worked at BigBank, which was up to 1993. We had lots in storage in Iron Mountain and online in jukeboxes the size of large refrigerators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive -- Al Dykes News is something someone wants to suppress, everything else is advertising. - Lord Northcliffe, publisher of the Daily Mail |