Must a Palm app have color, icons and tree-views to be marketable?
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From: Gregg Woodcock on 31 Jan 2005 11:16 Our sales are suffering because of the ubiquitous GUI standards of the modern desktop where resources (filespace/RAM and CPU/speed) are essentially infinite. Despite our confidence that we are giving users what they need, there is a steady stream of complaints (and, worse yet, a distinct lack of sales) because we are not giving them what they think they want. Is it possible to convince potential users/customers that a different, simpler (even "plain") UI is not merely tolerable but is actually domonstrably "better" when it comes to limited, imbedded (or semi-inbedded) hardware/OS environments such as palmtop computers? Or is the only hope of appeasing the complainers (and generating sales) to make the app more cubmersome and bloated so as to better "fit in" with the common user (i.e. desktop) experience? We know what the "right" thing to do is but we have a business to run and I have to consider the bottom line and right now our "if you build it (right) they (buyers) will come" strategy is not working. The essential question is, how important is it for a GOOD piece of software to make a good first impression? And, if it is as important as we are beginning to realize it is, is it justifiable to sacrifice limited resources and useability (RAM, speed and elegant simplicity) to give the user what he is expecting to see even though it is merely a ruse to secure his comfort level (towards a sale)? This is an age-old delima that has plagued business from aracades (if I cannot get the player to insert the first quarter, it doesn't matter how good my game is; the player will never give it a chance to find out) to restaurants (just make the food on the menu look great even if what is served is nothing like it). It is as much a moral delima it is a marketing decision because there is always a cost. That is the broad question and as a specific example, I put forth our just-released version 3.0 of New Yanoff (NY) 3.0 (http://www.PalmYanoff.com). We have gotten several surprisingly harsh criticisms lately with which I cannot agree. However, I am beginning to question whether I am correct in my disagreement (could the complainers really be right?) and so I am beginning this open discussion on UI for Palm in general, and for Usenet newsreader clients on Palm in particular. We have had a very difficult time getting any specific criticism (constructive or otherwise) about NY (with the exception of comments in regards to PocketPurchase which have been resolved, thankfully). Most of the feedback that we have seen really doesn't make much sense to looking at it as a PALM USER. As a PALM USER even when considering a hypothetically "near-perfect" Palm Usenet newsreader, what do you consider essential (must-have) or, alternatively, must-avoid functionality/features? Here is an amalgomation of some recent conversations we have had to seed this discussion: > IMHO a newsreader that cannot group messages by thread is uselessý. I agree that's why the first feature I added to New Yanoff was full threading (GPL had a pathetic threading algorithm)! GPL Yanoff barely threaded at all (only father-son) but NY now threads very, very well (and the PC-side software when using the Java Conduit threads perfectly)! Have you tried 3.0? > (no thread trees) Thread trees seem to have so little practical utility as to be virtually useless; certainly of so little use so as not to bother trying to make sense of them on such a small screen as exists for Palm devices. Please tell me how you use thread trees in actual practice and I am relatively certain that NY currently has a way to do achieve the same result (or, if not, it could be modified to do so without resorting to thread trees). > The icon is still monochrome (the only monochrome icon > out of over 200 applications I have installed). > I spent much money to have a better display and > today in 2005 a commercial product with a b/w,low-res icon... I could add a color icon but won't until I add color features; to do otherwise would be misleading. We also have a commitment to remain backwards compatible with older (i.e. low-res, grayscale devices) but that can be done while adding color features. For a text-based newsreader the same argument we used in regards to thread trees applies: what use of color can ONLY be done with color? The only one I can think of is quote-level-coloring. This is actually a valid answer but the reality is not so simple as it might seem due to gross limitations/oversight in the Palm OS itself. We have looked at adding this feature and, believe it or not, multi-colored text fields require a HUGE investment of time and code (all the built in text functions have to be abandoned as there is no built-in support/API for multi-colored text fields)! But, other than this, where is color crucial to a specific useful feature? We would love some good ideas for how color should/might be used in a Palm OS newsreader (so long as it does NOT require multi-colored text in a single text field) to give us the justification we need to move to a color icon! > ... and minimalist interface/graýphics OK, this is something I have heard quite a bit from many people who are used to other programs. Screen space is very scarce and the more buttons and icons exist, the less room there will be for what is *really* important: TEXT! New Yanoff is *not* a clone of Outlook Express (or any other newsreader). GPL Yanoff and New Yanoff were designed and built from the beginning with the Palm HW and its inherent limitations in mind. They were DESIGNED to exploit the reality of PALM! NY does not pretend to be OE-on-Palm because OE's design would be WAY too cluttered, confusing and inappropriate. One of the reasons our registered users love NY is *BECAUSE* it works so well for their device and does not try to cram a desktop design onto a minimalist OS/machine! And yet, as happy as our current user base is, I sense we are winning the battle but losing the war. > the buttons are using "Dude Speak" (yes, I can see to save space) > but buttons with abbreviations instead of icons is not a good idea. Almost all of the buttons are user-definable and SO ARE THEIR TEXT LABELS! Just what kind of icon can represent functions such as: "Delete all Unlocked Articles from cursor on up, move to Next Newsgroup and goto 1st unread article"? And how would that icon differ from the sister function: "Delete all Read Articles, move to Next Newsgroup and goto top article"? You see, in actual fact, it is not as simple as it might seem and there are many justifications for doing it the way we have in our implementation. But even if that weren't so, why should we waste the memory (yes, on PDAs, RAM is very scarce) adding bitmaps especially when they wouldn't be intuitive? Remember, this is an app DESIGNED for the limited environment of Palm OS (where memory can be VERY tight). The last thing people will use or appreciate is a 1Gb PRC! We are already receiving complaints that the PRC is "too large"... > many of the other menu options and buttons > don't seem organized well at all. This is just the kind of useless comment that drives designers crazy! The words "many", "other", "seem" are worthless because they are too vague! PLEASE: If you don't like how something has been done, be specific! Say something like, "Menu Y's option 3 and Menu X's option 2 should be under a new Menu called "Z" because they are related in such-and-such a manner." That is something we can consider accomodating! > If you need inspiration, you can take a look to TuNews I have seen it and I strongly disapprove. It is (along with most portable newsreaders, especially the PPC ones) trying to be exactly what NY is trying avoid: OutlookExpressCrammedOntoPalmOS. The goal of a newsreader should be convenient access to (and manipulation of) news threads. With NY we have attempted to maximize that goal TAKING FULL CONSIDERATION of the limited environment that exists on the Palm OS/hardware. > But it is much more promising than NY, in my opinion. Besides icons (totally disagree), thread-trees (can agree in principle but in practice this does not seem to be a real issue) and color (I agree on color and and am working on it), what does TuNews (or any other portable Usenet client) do better than NY? Those of you who "don't like" NY, have you actually spent time getting to know NY or did you just take a peek at it and say to yourself, "doesn't look like OE so it must not be any good"? I think if you give NY a sincere try, you will find that it does nearly everything you really want a newsreader to do and it does so very well (even though it may do it in a different fashion than how you may be accostomed). We are begging here for elaboration. Please, give NY a fresh try and give us specific feedback. We are not afraid of competition so better yet, try both and then let us know what you think. Try to set aside your prejudices and OE-bias and evaluate the apps on how well they actually achieve the goal of accessing text in a reliable, pleasant and efficient mannter. Don't forget to sample the advanced features such as killfiles and SPAM avoidance (which OE and TuNews do not have) which greatly contribute to a sastifactory user experience. > I hope this dont offend you Be assured, it does not; after all, we are BEGGING for critical/constructive feedback! > I know that a program like Yanoýff requires many, > many months of hard work, That really isn't a valid consideration. If a piece of software is junk, it is junk, regardless of how long the junk took to create, right? And if NY is junk, we really do want (need) to know. > but today PalmOS PDA are powerful, and we are accustomed to > ývery complex programs,with many advanced funtions, graphics etc. So please elaborate as to what NY should have that it does not. You can't just say, "it needs to exploit my color screen" and not explain how! The prepodnerance of color devices does not, in itself, provide a justification the expense of adding color to an app (although perhaps, from a purely marketing standpoint it does). Even more importantly, WHY should NY have this thing that you feel it needs; how would you use this thing and why is it so important? What is it you desire to do now that cannot currently be done just as well? The "how" and "why" will help us to decide if your desire has genuine validity. > NY looks like a very old and amateurish program when > it is compared to best PýalmOS software; The same could be said of any newsreader on any platform when compared to the flashiest software (such as games) on that same platform. NY is for TEXT-based Usenet; how flashy can text be? How flashy is your favorite desktop newsreader? When was the last time OE was updated? How does OE compare to IE or Word or Doom3? Seriously, have you tried it to see how it handles text articles? Was your user experience seriously lacking somehow? God willing, NY will *never* be OE and that is a GOOD thing! > the only chance of success for NY is the complete lack of alternatives Ouch; that one hurt! :> > and I hope you will make a gýood newsreader in the future And I hope everyone will continue this discussion until we can come to some points of agreement so we can make NY more of what everyone would like to use! P.S. Before you non-English speakers flood us please know that we are painfully aware that we do not have satisfactory multi-language support and are also working on this.
From: Guy Bannis on 31 Jan 2005 13:12 In article <3674g4F4sbor7U1(a)individual.net>, "Gregg Woodcock" <usenet(a)SonLightSoftware.com> wrote: > Is it possible to convince potential users/customers that a different, > simpler (even "plain") UI is not merely tolerable but is actually > domonstrably "better" when it comes to limited, imbedded (or semi-inbedded) > hardware/OS environments such as palmtop computers? Or is the only hope of > appeasing the complainers (and generating sales) to make the app more > cubmersome and bloated so as to better "fit in" with the common user (i.e. > desktop) experience? We know what the "right" thing to do is but we have a > business to run and I have to consider the bottom line and right now our "if > you build it (right) they (buyers) will come" strategy is not working. In my marketing terms, the right thing to do is to provide the customer with something that improves his "experience." Experience, in this case, means not only the use of your product, but the benefits from it as well, that is, it helps the customer do his work more easily/quickly/cheaply/happily perhaps in ways he never even considered. So, in that context, the user's perception of your product does matter although it would be worthwhile to find out if the UI is what's holding your customers back or if there's something else more streamlined (and closer to what your company thinks is "right") that would improve sales -- new functionality, tweaks to the existing UI without going whole-hog graphic, performance improvements, etc.
From: Jim Anderson on 31 Jan 2005 14:34 In article <3674g4F4sbor7U1(a)individual.net>, usenet(a)SonLightSoftware.com says... > what does TuNews (or any other portable Usenet client) do better than NY? > Thanks for pointing out Palm TuNews, I must have missed it's release. Love it's tree threading and wonderfull use of color. The screen-shot shows an 'Arthur Hagen' thread highlighted, coincidence? <http://tinyurl.com/4zwo7> *Art, are you getting royalties for using your name in their ads? -- Hope this helps. Jim Anderson ( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
From: Brian on 31 Jan 2005 14:50 On 2005-01-31 08:16:43 -0800, "Gregg Woodcock" <usenet(a)SonLightSoftware.com> said: >> The icon is still monochrome (the only monochrome icon >> out of over 200 applications I have installed). >> I spent much money to have a better display and >> today in 2005 a commercial product with a b/w,low-res icon... I have to agree there. It looks really silly to have 1 monochrome app icon in a sea of color icons. Not to mention if I see a b/w icon, I presume that the app is *old* (ie, pre-dates color icons). > >> ... and minimalist interface/graýphics I took a look at the screen shots at the product web page, and I'd have to agree. While it *is* a text app, you can still make use of some color. For example, you could provide a "ledger view" where you alternate between white and blue for the list view. > >> the buttons are using "Dude Speak" (yes, I can see to save space) >> but buttons with abbreviations instead of icons is not a good idea. If the idea is to "keep things simple", then having a button called "v^" doesn't make sense at all. Is this a newsreader for people that previously used tin via dialup? You shouldn't need to be a command line geek to use a newsreader. >> NY looks like a very old and amateurish program when >> it is compared to best PýalmOS software; > > The same could be said of any newsreader on any platform when compared to > the flashiest software (such as games) on that same platform. > NY is for TEXT-based Usenet; how flashy can text be? > How flashy is your favorite desktop newsreader? For a good example, compare an older Newsreader (such as Thoth) with a modern "flashy" one such as Unison (these are on Mac). One of them has the "text feel", the other feels more like a modern app - icon bars, drawers that hold favorites, etc. They both deal with text, but one feels more like a modern app, the other feels more like a text app. Brian
From: Brian on 31 Jan 2005 15:01
On 2005-01-31 08:16:43 -0800, "Gregg Woodcock" <usenet(a)SonLightSoftware.com> said: > This is an age-old delima that has > plagued business from aracades (if I cannot get the player to insert the > first quarter, it doesn't matter > how good my game is; the player will never give it a chance to find out) to > restaurants (just make the food on the menu look great even if what is > served is nothing like it). It is as much a moral delima it is a marketing > decision because there is always a cost. Why not strike a balance? When you do a new release, make sure to include a balance of new (technical) features and at least one or two "features" that provide "sizzle". That way the sizzle/eye-candy gets you press coverage, downloads, etc, and the technical features endear you to those that appreciate depth. Keeping an app 100% b/w just because it will save a few bytes/CPU cycles may be admirable from a "purist" view, but if the marketplace had determined b/w was desirable, we'd still be clamoring for Palm Vs (a wonderful machine in its day, but there is a reason nobody sells a b/w business class handheld). |