Mutual time slowdown means both clocks go slow
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From: BURT on 7 Aug 2010 00:28 On Aug 6, 9:26 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 7, 2:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:17 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 7, 2:09 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:02 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:42 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:35 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:17 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:11 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 10:02 am, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Let us say you are a twin on a high speed train. You are passsing the > > > > > > > > > > station and its clock is out in the open. When you pass the station by > > > > > > > > > > SR you are supposed to see its clock going slow. But if this were true > > > > > > > > > > show when it has an oportunity to age more. Surely it cannot be mutual > > > > > > > > > > all of the time and what needs to be defined is when it is not. > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise you don't have a workable theory. > > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > > So .. you still don't get it. Neither clock is running slow .. both > > > > > > > > > are keeping perfect time. > > > > > > > > > > They are MEASURED as slower by moving observers. > > > > > > > > > So all I have to do is move and I can slow down clocks around me? > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? You moving does NOTHING AT ALL to the other > > > > > > > clocks. NEITHER clock is running slow. > > > > > > > > > > Eg. if a passenger at the font of the train looks at the time on the > > > > > > > > > station clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and a > > > > > > > > > passenger at the rear of the train looks at the time n the station > > > > > > > > > clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and then if they > > > > > > > > > compare what times they saw on the station clock .. they would say > > > > > > > > > that the station clock is running SLOWER. HOWEVER, a parson standing > > > > > > > > > at the station clock, and looking at the clocks of the two passengers > > > > > > > > > as they pass, would conclude that time was running FASTER for the > > > > > > > > > train passengers (not slower). There is no contradiction in what they > > > > > > > > > observe. > > > > > > > > > > If you reverse the situation (two observers at each end of the > > > > > > > > > platform and a clock in the middle of the train) you'd get the two > > > > > > > > > observers on the platform deciding that the train clock is SLOWER, and > > > > > > > > > an observer at the train clock would see the two people on ends of the > > > > > > > > > platform's clock running FASTER. > > > > > > > > > > Its a difference in clock sync for the passengers relative to the > > > > > > > > > station clock that make the rate of time appear faster or slower. > > > > > > > > > If the passengers in front and back of the train see the station's > > > > > > > > clock running slow then how will that station age more than them? > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? Both are ticking at the same correct rate .. > > > > > > > neither ages more than the other. It is differences in clock sync > > > > > > > that mean you would calculate other clocks as apparently ticking > > > > > > > slower or faster.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > One twin ages more than the other. > > > > > > No. Don't you read? > > > > > > > If the twin on the train sees the > > > > > > station twin time running slow > > > > > > How do you think he determines that? > > > > > Because the clock is on the outside of the station. > > > > You didn't answer the question .. where the clock is located is NOT > > > how the rate is determined. So .. how about you answer the question: > > > How does the observer on the train determine that the station clock is > > > ticking slower? > > > > > > > then when does it happen that the > > > > > > station twin ages more? > > > > > > He doesn't. Nor does he age less. > > > > > That is not what Einstein had to say about his twins. > > > > *YOU* and *I* are talking about 'twins' on a train and station, and > > > *mutual* time dilation. > > > > That is very different to the 'twin paradox' where one twin moves away > > > from the other and the changes velocity and returns. You are nowhere > > > NEAR ready to talk about that until you understand mutual time > > > dilation and what it actually means. Don't run before you can walk.. > > > > > Where do you get your argument against Einstein's twin paradox? > > > > I'm not arguing against it .. I wan't even talking about it. And > > > neither were you. > > > > What I AM trying (in vain) to do is to educate you. Are you willing > > > to learn, or are you going to remain a troll? > > > > Now .. back to mutual time dilation. Both clocks tick at the correct > > > rate. Neither slows down. Neither speeds up. A moving observer has > > > NO EFFECT on the ticking rate of a clock. In your scenario of a > > > passenger on a train and a station clock .. How does the passenger > > > determine that the station clock is ticking slower?- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Asuming the stations clock is outside he should have no problem seeing > > it and recording it as he passes. > > Seeing and recording a single time as as passes tell you NOTHING about > the ticking rate. > > How does the passenger determine that the station clock is ticking > slower? Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have > other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - By comparison. Mitch Raemsch
From: artful on 7 Aug 2010 00:32 On Aug 7, 2:28 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Aug 6, 9:26 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 6, 9:17 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:09 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:02 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:42 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:35 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:17 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:11 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 10:02 am, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us say you are a twin on a high speed train. You are passsing the > > > > > > > > > > > station and its clock is out in the open. When you pass the station by > > > > > > > > > > > SR you are supposed to see its clock going slow. But if this were true > > > > > > > > > > > show when it has an oportunity to age more. Surely it cannot be mutual > > > > > > > > > > > all of the time and what needs to be defined is when it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise you don't have a workable theory. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > > > So .. you still don't get it. Neither clock is running slow .. both > > > > > > > > > > are keeping perfect time. > > > > > > > > > > > They are MEASURED as slower by moving observers. > > > > > > > > > > So all I have to do is move and I can slow down clocks around me? > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? You moving does NOTHING AT ALL to the other > > > > > > > > clocks. NEITHER clock is running slow. > > > > > > > > > > > Eg. if a passenger at the font of the train looks at the time on the > > > > > > > > > > station clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and a > > > > > > > > > > passenger at the rear of the train looks at the time n the station > > > > > > > > > > clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and then if they > > > > > > > > > > compare what times they saw on the station clock .. they would say > > > > > > > > > > that the station clock is running SLOWER. HOWEVER, a parson standing > > > > > > > > > > at the station clock, and looking at the clocks of the two passengers > > > > > > > > > > as they pass, would conclude that time was running FASTER for the > > > > > > > > > > train passengers (not slower). There is no contradiction in what they > > > > > > > > > > observe. > > > > > > > > > > > If you reverse the situation (two observers at each end of the > > > > > > > > > > platform and a clock in the middle of the train) you'd get the two > > > > > > > > > > observers on the platform deciding that the train clock is SLOWER, and > > > > > > > > > > an observer at the train clock would see the two people on ends of the > > > > > > > > > > platform's clock running FASTER. > > > > > > > > > > > Its a difference in clock sync for the passengers relative to the > > > > > > > > > > station clock that make the rate of time appear faster or slower. > > > > > > > > > > If the passengers in front and back of the train see the station's > > > > > > > > > clock running slow then how will that station age more than them? > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? Both are ticking at the same correct rate .. > > > > > > > > neither ages more than the other. It is differences in clock sync > > > > > > > > that mean you would calculate other clocks as apparently ticking > > > > > > > > slower or faster.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > One twin ages more than the other. > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? > > > > > > > > If the twin on the train sees the > > > > > > > station twin time running slow > > > > > > > How do you think he determines that? > > > > > > Because the clock is on the outside of the station. > > > > > You didn't answer the question .. where the clock is located is NOT > > > > how the rate is determined. So .. how about you answer the question: > > > > How does the observer on the train determine that the station clock is > > > > ticking slower? > > > > > > > > then when does it happen that the > > > > > > > station twin ages more? > > > > > > > He doesn't. Nor does he age less. > > > > > > That is not what Einstein had to say about his twins. > > > > > *YOU* and *I* are talking about 'twins' on a train and station, and > > > > *mutual* time dilation. > > > > > That is very different to the 'twin paradox' where one twin moves away > > > > from the other and the changes velocity and returns. You are nowhere > > > > NEAR ready to talk about that until you understand mutual time > > > > dilation and what it actually means. Don't run before you can walk. > > > > > > Where do you get your argument against Einstein's twin paradox? > > > > > I'm not arguing against it .. I wan't even talking about it. And > > > > neither were you. > > > > > What I AM trying (in vain) to do is to educate you. Are you willing > > > > to learn, or are you going to remain a troll? > > > > > Now .. back to mutual time dilation. Both clocks tick at the correct > > > > rate. Neither slows down. Neither speeds up. A moving observer has > > > > NO EFFECT on the ticking rate of a clock. In your scenario of a > > > > passenger on a train and a station clock .. How does the passenger > > > > determine that the station clock is ticking slower?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Asuming the stations clock is outside he should have no problem seeing > > > it and recording it as he passes. > > > Seeing and recording a single time as as passes tell you NOTHING about > > the ticking rate. > > > How does the passenger determine that the station clock is ticking > > slower? Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have > > other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > By comparison. Comparison of what with what? Still no answer to the question .. I've asked four times now. Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have other friends on the station or the train help him.
From: BURT on 7 Aug 2010 00:37 On Aug 6, 9:32 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 7, 2:28 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:26 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 7, 2:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:17 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:09 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:02 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:42 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:35 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:17 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:11 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 10:02 am, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us say you are a twin on a high speed train. You are passsing the > > > > > > > > > > > > station and its clock is out in the open. When you pass the station by > > > > > > > > > > > > SR you are supposed to see its clock going slow. But if this were true > > > > > > > > > > > > show when it has an oportunity to age more. Surely it cannot be mutual > > > > > > > > > > > > all of the time and what needs to be defined is when it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise you don't have a workable theory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > > > > So .. you still don't get it. Neither clock is running slow .. both > > > > > > > > > > > are keeping perfect time. > > > > > > > > > > > > They are MEASURED as slower by moving observers. > > > > > > > > > > > So all I have to do is move and I can slow down clocks around me? > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? You moving does NOTHING AT ALL to the other > > > > > > > > > clocks. NEITHER clock is running slow. > > > > > > > > > > > > Eg. if a passenger at the font of the train looks at the time on the > > > > > > > > > > > station clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and a > > > > > > > > > > > passenger at the rear of the train looks at the time n the station > > > > > > > > > > > clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and then if they > > > > > > > > > > > compare what times they saw on the station clock .. they would say > > > > > > > > > > > that the station clock is running SLOWER. HOWEVER, a parson standing > > > > > > > > > > > at the station clock, and looking at the clocks of the two passengers > > > > > > > > > > > as they pass, would conclude that time was running FASTER for the > > > > > > > > > > > train passengers (not slower). There is no contradiction in what they > > > > > > > > > > > observe. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you reverse the situation (two observers at each end of the > > > > > > > > > > > platform and a clock in the middle of the train) you'd get the two > > > > > > > > > > > observers on the platform deciding that the train clock is SLOWER, and > > > > > > > > > > > an observer at the train clock would see the two people on ends of the > > > > > > > > > > > platform's clock running FASTER. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a difference in clock sync for the passengers relative to the > > > > > > > > > > > station clock that make the rate of time appear faster or slower. > > > > > > > > > > > If the passengers in front and back of the train see the station's > > > > > > > > > > clock running slow then how will that station age more than them? > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? Both are ticking at the same correct rate .. > > > > > > > > > neither ages more than the other. It is differences in clock sync > > > > > > > > > that mean you would calculate other clocks as apparently ticking > > > > > > > > > slower or faster.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > > One twin ages more than the other. > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? > > > > > > > > > If the twin on the train sees the > > > > > > > > station twin time running slow > > > > > > > > How do you think he determines that? > > > > > > > Because the clock is on the outside of the station. > > > > > > You didn't answer the question .. where the clock is located is NOT > > > > > how the rate is determined. So .. how about you answer the question: > > > > > How does the observer on the train determine that the station clock is > > > > > ticking slower? > > > > > > > > > then when does it happen that the > > > > > > > > station twin ages more? > > > > > > > > He doesn't. Nor does he age less. > > > > > > > That is not what Einstein had to say about his twins. > > > > > > *YOU* and *I* are talking about 'twins' on a train and station, and > > > > > *mutual* time dilation. > > > > > > That is very different to the 'twin paradox' where one twin moves away > > > > > from the other and the changes velocity and returns. You are nowhere > > > > > NEAR ready to talk about that until you understand mutual time > > > > > dilation and what it actually means. Don't run before you can walk. > > > > > > > Where do you get your argument against Einstein's twin paradox? > > > > > > I'm not arguing against it .. I wan't even talking about it. And > > > > > neither were you. > > > > > > What I AM trying (in vain) to do is to educate you. Are you willing > > > > > to learn, or are you going to remain a troll? > > > > > > Now .. back to mutual time dilation. Both clocks tick at the correct > > > > > rate. Neither slows down. Neither speeds up. A moving observer has > > > > > NO EFFECT on the ticking rate of a clock. In your scenario of a > > > > > passenger on a train and a station clock .. How does the passenger > > > > > determine that the station clock is ticking slower?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > Asuming the stations clock is outside he should have no problem seeing > > > > it and recording it as he passes. > > > > Seeing and recording a single time as as passes tell you NOTHING about > > > the ticking rate. > > > > How does the passenger determine that the station clock is ticking > > > slower? Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have > > > other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > By comparison. > > Comparison of what with what? Still no answer to the question .. I've > asked four times now. Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is > allowed to have other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - A watch will do. Mitch Raemsch
From: artful on 7 Aug 2010 00:40 On Aug 7, 2:37 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Aug 6, 9:32 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:28 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 6, 9:26 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:17 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:09 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:02 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:42 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:35 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:17 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:11 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 10:02 am, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us say you are a twin on a high speed train. You are passsing the > > > > > > > > > > > > > station and its clock is out in the open. When you pass the station by > > > > > > > > > > > > > SR you are supposed to see its clock going slow. But if this were true > > > > > > > > > > > > > show when it has an oportunity to age more. Surely it cannot be mutual > > > > > > > > > > > > > all of the time and what needs to be defined is when it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise you don't have a workable theory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > > > > > So .. you still don't get it. Neither clock is running slow .. both > > > > > > > > > > > > are keeping perfect time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are MEASURED as slower by moving observers. > > > > > > > > > > > > So all I have to do is move and I can slow down clocks around me? > > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? You moving does NOTHING AT ALL to the other > > > > > > > > > > clocks. NEITHER clock is running slow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eg. if a passenger at the font of the train looks at the time on the > > > > > > > > > > > > station clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and a > > > > > > > > > > > > passenger at the rear of the train looks at the time n the station > > > > > > > > > > > > clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and then if they > > > > > > > > > > > > compare what times they saw on the station clock .. they would say > > > > > > > > > > > > that the station clock is running SLOWER. HOWEVER, a parson standing > > > > > > > > > > > > at the station clock, and looking at the clocks of the two passengers > > > > > > > > > > > > as they pass, would conclude that time was running FASTER for the > > > > > > > > > > > > train passengers (not slower). There is no contradiction in what they > > > > > > > > > > > > observe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you reverse the situation (two observers at each end of the > > > > > > > > > > > > platform and a clock in the middle of the train) you'd get the two > > > > > > > > > > > > observers on the platform deciding that the train clock is SLOWER, and > > > > > > > > > > > > an observer at the train clock would see the two people on ends of the > > > > > > > > > > > > platform's clock running FASTER. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a difference in clock sync for the passengers relative to the > > > > > > > > > > > > station clock that make the rate of time appear faster or slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the passengers in front and back of the train see the station's > > > > > > > > > > > clock running slow then how will that station age more than them? > > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? Both are ticking at the same correct rate .. > > > > > > > > > > neither ages more than the other. It is differences in clock sync > > > > > > > > > > that mean you would calculate other clocks as apparently ticking > > > > > > > > > > slower or faster.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > One twin ages more than the other. > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? > > > > > > > > > > If the twin on the train sees the > > > > > > > > > station twin time running slow > > > > > > > > > How do you think he determines that? > > > > > > > > Because the clock is on the outside of the station. > > > > > > > You didn't answer the question .. where the clock is located is NOT > > > > > > how the rate is determined. So .. how about you answer the question: > > > > > > How does the observer on the train determine that the station clock is > > > > > > ticking slower? > > > > > > > > > > then when does it happen that the > > > > > > > > > station twin ages more? > > > > > > > > > He doesn't. Nor does he age less. > > > > > > > > That is not what Einstein had to say about his twins. > > > > > > > *YOU* and *I* are talking about 'twins' on a train and station, and > > > > > > *mutual* time dilation. > > > > > > > That is very different to the 'twin paradox' where one twin moves away > > > > > > from the other and the changes velocity and returns. You are nowhere > > > > > > NEAR ready to talk about that until you understand mutual time > > > > > > dilation and what it actually means. Don't run before you can walk. > > > > > > > > Where do you get your argument against Einstein's twin paradox? > > > > > > > I'm not arguing against it .. I wan't even talking about it. And > > > > > > neither were you. > > > > > > > What I AM trying (in vain) to do is to educate you. Are you willing > > > > > > to learn, or are you going to remain a troll? > > > > > > > Now .. back to mutual time dilation. Both clocks tick at the correct > > > > > > rate. Neither slows down. Neither speeds up. A moving observer has > > > > > > NO EFFECT on the ticking rate of a clock. In your scenario of a > > > > > > passenger on a train and a station clock .. How does the passenger > > > > > > determine that the station clock is ticking slower?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > Asuming the stations clock is outside he should have no problem seeing > > > > > it and recording it as he passes. > > > > > Seeing and recording a single time as as passes tell you NOTHING about > > > > the ticking rate. > > > > > How does the passenger determine that the station clock is ticking > > > > slower? Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have > > > > other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > By comparison. > > > Comparison of what with what? Still no answer to the question .. I've > > asked four times now. Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is > > allowed to have other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > A watch will do. Will do what? Still no answer to the question .. I've asked five times now. Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have other friends on the station or the train help him.
From: BURT on 7 Aug 2010 00:47
On Aug 6, 9:40 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 7, 2:37 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:32 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 7, 2:28 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:26 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:17 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:09 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:02 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:42 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:35 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:17 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:11 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 10:02 am, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us say you are a twin on a high speed train.. You are passsing the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > station and its clock is out in the open. When you pass the station by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SR you are supposed to see its clock going slow.. But if this were true > > > > > > > > > > > > > > show when it has an oportunity to age more. Surely it cannot be mutual > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all of the time and what needs to be defined is when it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise you don't have a workable theory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So .. you still don't get it. Neither clock is running slow .. both > > > > > > > > > > > > > are keeping perfect time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are MEASURED as slower by moving observers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So all I have to do is move and I can slow down clocks around me? > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? You moving does NOTHING AT ALL to the other > > > > > > > > > > > clocks. NEITHER clock is running slow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eg. if a passenger at the font of the train looks at the time on the > > > > > > > > > > > > > station clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and a > > > > > > > > > > > > > passenger at the rear of the train looks at the time n the station > > > > > > > > > > > > > clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and then if they > > > > > > > > > > > > > compare what times they saw on the station clock ... they would say > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the station clock is running SLOWER. HOWEVER, a parson standing > > > > > > > > > > > > > at the station clock, and looking at the clocks of the two passengers > > > > > > > > > > > > > as they pass, would conclude that time was running FASTER for the > > > > > > > > > > > > > train passengers (not slower). There is no contradiction in what they > > > > > > > > > > > > > observe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you reverse the situation (two observers at each end of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > platform and a clock in the middle of the train) you'd get the two > > > > > > > > > > > > > observers on the platform deciding that the train clock is SLOWER, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > an observer at the train clock would see the two people on ends of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > platform's clock running FASTER. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a difference in clock sync for the passengers relative to the > > > > > > > > > > > > > station clock that make the rate of time appear faster or slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the passengers in front and back of the train see the station's > > > > > > > > > > > > clock running slow then how will that station age more than them? > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? Both are ticking at the same correct rate .. > > > > > > > > > > > neither ages more than the other. It is differences in clock sync > > > > > > > > > > > that mean you would calculate other clocks as apparently ticking > > > > > > > > > > > slower or faster.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > One twin ages more than the other. > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? > > > > > > > > > > > If the twin on the train sees the > > > > > > > > > > station twin time running slow > > > > > > > > > > How do you think he determines that? > > > > > > > > > Because the clock is on the outside of the station. > > > > > > > > You didn't answer the question .. where the clock is located is NOT > > > > > > > how the rate is determined. So .. how about you answer the question: > > > > > > > How does the observer on the train determine that the station clock is > > > > > > > ticking slower? > > > > > > > > > > > then when does it happen that the > > > > > > > > > > station twin ages more? > > > > > > > > > > He doesn't. Nor does he age less. > > > > > > > > > That is not what Einstein had to say about his twins. > > > > > > > > *YOU* and *I* are talking about 'twins' on a train and station, and > > > > > > > *mutual* time dilation. > > > > > > > > That is very different to the 'twin paradox' where one twin moves away > > > > > > > from the other and the changes velocity and returns. You are nowhere > > > > > > > NEAR ready to talk about that until you understand mutual time > > > > > > > dilation and what it actually means. Don't run before you can walk. > > > > > > > > > Where do you get your argument against Einstein's twin paradox? > > > > > > > > I'm not arguing against it .. I wan't even talking about it. And > > > > > > > neither were you. > > > > > > > > What I AM trying (in vain) to do is to educate you. Are you willing > > > > > > > to learn, or are you going to remain a troll? > > > > > > > > Now .. back to mutual time dilation. Both clocks tick at the correct > > > > > > > rate. Neither slows down. Neither speeds up. A moving observer has > > > > > > > NO EFFECT on the ticking rate of a clock. In your scenario of a > > > > > > > passenger on a train and a station clock .. How does the passenger > > > > > > > determine that the station clock is ticking slower?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > Asuming the stations clock is outside he should have no problem seeing > > > > > > it and recording it as he passes. > > > > > > Seeing and recording a single time as as passes tell you NOTHING about > > > > > the ticking rate. > > > > > > How does the passenger determine that the station clock is ticking > > > > > slower? Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have > > > > > other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > By comparison. > > > > Comparison of what with what? Still no answer to the question .. I've > > > asked four times now. Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is > > > allowed to have other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > A watch will do. > > Will do what? Still no answer to the question .. I've asked five > times now. Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have > other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I will help you here. I watch is a clock one wears on his arm and will tell time. Mitch Raemsch |