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From: derrick.williams@gmail.com on 27 Jan 2006 15:33
Hello, this is my first time posting to these groups ... so please be
gentle. =)
Anyways, here's my situation:
(I apologize if this is long winded, I just don't want to leave
anything out)

I have a project to setup a roaming wireless network in our main office
building which is only 2 floors, each of which is about the area of
half of a football field, maybe a little larger. I will have one
dedicated DSL line which will be completely separate from the rest of
our network; we decided on this for security reasons because this
wireless infrastructure will be primarily used by guests in the
conference rooms. The DSL line will be available through one jack in
the wall at the location of my choosing for the router to connect, but
this can be changed if need be.

I have read other threads and it looks like I will need one router and
multiple access points in order to obtain smooth roaming without
connection loss/session interruption. These should be set on
non-conflicting channels with the same SSID, subnet and WEP (which I
will change frequently for minimal security, although this is separate
from the network as stated above). Is this correct, or are there
easier/better ways of going about this? Ideally, I would like to only
give the users/guests a SSID and WEP in order to connect, then they
could walk all over the office without losing connection.

My major questions are these (please try to be as specific as possible
in the answers as it will help greatly):

(1) How in the heck will I connect all this stuff in order to get the
true 'roaming' effect? I have seen posts stating that all the AP's
must be hard wired into the one router, but that seems like ALOT of
wiring and extra work just to obtain smooth roaming WiFi in the office.
Let alone it would seem to defeat the purpose of 'wireless.' There has
to be a way for all this to connect without having to run tons of new
cable in the ceilings and walls.
(2) Will I be able to disable the SSID broadcast and still obtain the
roaming effect? I would like to keep the possibility of eavesdropping
as minimal as possible.
(3) Can you offer any advice on configuring the devices, or was I
correct above?
(4) With all these AP's running through one router I would think the
load would be pretty heavy at times and I don't want this to crash or
freeze during peak traffic, so what suggestions can you provide on
hardware? A nice solid router and some decent AP's as suggestions
would be great, unless I'm wrong about the required hardware, then
please feel free to suggest otherwise. (We have approx 80 users in the
office) I just want to avoid spending some our department's budget on
equipment that I will not use, or even worse, on equipment that sucks.

All in all, I would really like this project to be a 'home-run' as it
will be my first with this company. If the approach I am taking is
wrong and there's a better method, then please inform me otherwise, as
I would be happy to learn. Thanks in advance!

From: William P.N. Smith on 27 Jan 2006 17:37
"derrick.williams(a)gmail.com" <derrick.williams(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>I have read other threads and it looks like I will need one router and
>multiple access points in order to obtain smooth roaming without
>connection loss/session interruption. These should be set on
>non-conflicting channels with the same SSID, subnet and WEP

I've made this work with Linksys WAP54g APs and a random router
(twice), though not every client may do the same kind of 'seamless'
roaming. I know you don't have any control over your guest clients,
but I've had good luck with Intel 2200BG cards.

I'd use WPA, as it's easier to {set,change,publish} passphrases, and
it's much more secure. If someone shows up with a laptop that doesn't
have a WPA supplicant, too bad for them.

>(1) How in the heck will I connect all this stuff in order to get the
>true 'roaming' effect? I have seen posts stating that all the AP's
>must be hard wired into the one router, but that seems like ALOT of
>wiring and extra work just to obtain smooth roaming WiFi in the office.
>Let alone it would seem to defeat the purpose of 'wireless.' There has
>to be a way for all this to connect without having to run tons of new
>cable in the ceilings and walls.

I'd only do it that way. It's possible to almost get something
similar to mostly work properly most of the time using APs and
repeaters, but it's going to be slow and buggy, and you mention that
you want this to work flawlessly.

>(2) Will I be able to disable the SSID broadcast and still obtain the
>roaming effect? I would like to keep the possibility of eavesdropping
>as minimal as possible.

SSID broadcast doesn't increase security, and will cause problems
roaming. Instead of seeing a better AP, the clients will wait till
they've completely lost the far AP before searching for another one.

>(4) With all these AP's running through one router I would think the
>load would be pretty heavy at times and I don't want this to crash or
>freeze during peak traffic, so what suggestions can you provide on
>hardware?

Linksys is nice, I've had trouble with every SOHO router hanging with
too much traffic (OSLT), but that was with Aezurus running on a FIOS
line, and I don't suspect you'll have many guests running file-sharing
programs...

Stay far from DLink products. Far, far away. Run screaming when
anyone mentions them, or you'll be doing way more of
http://gallery.compusmiths.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Pine-Cay-Summer-2004-Picture-Of-The-Day&id=S45_1541
than you want to. 8*)

Consider powering the APs with Power-Over-Ethernet solutions, so you
can power cycle them all from a single location, you can have
everything run off a single UPS, and you won't have to run/find power
in the ceilings for the APs. Linksys POE solution isn't 802.3af
compliant (thought they claim it is), but it's a lot cheaper than most
other POE products, and as long as you keep it away from other non-POE
hardware you should be safe.
From: derrick.williams@gmail.com on 27 Jan 2006 19:31
Thanks for all the helpful information William! I think WPA may be a
more secure and viable solution for me to use in this situation. By the
way I really did LOL at that picture, even in the middle of the office.
=) I do have a question about one portion though, since it seems I am
having the most trouble finding a solution for connecting all the
components.

>>(1) How in the heck will I connect all this stuff in order to get the
>>true 'roaming' effect? I have seen posts stating that all the AP's
>>must be hard wired into the one router, but that seems like ALOT of
>>wiring and extra work just to obtain smooth roaming WiFi in the office.
>>Let alone it would seem to defeat the purpose of 'wireless.' There has
>>to be a way for all this to connect without having to run tons of new
>>cable in the ceilings and walls.

>I'd only do it that way. It's possible to almost get something
>similar to mostly work properly most of the time using APs and
>repeaters, but it's going to be slow and buggy, and you mention that
>you want this to work flawlessly

This poses a small problem for me because I don't think I will be able
to run CAT-5e cable all over our building in order to connect all the
AP's to the router. Basically, it will be a random router plugged into
the wall by a conference room and all the AP's will be spread around
the building. The one jack the router uses will be a dedicated DSL
line. Is there a way to get all of these devices connected without
running ethernet cable everywhere? Perhaps any reliable wireless
solutions of connecting the AP's to the router, or would that basically
be a repeater? I have a bad feeling that these may be the only two
options, unless there's some other way.

You mentioned that you have done this twice before ... did you manually
run the cable from the router to the AP's? Was this a long distance?
I am curious as to how others have tackled this task of connecting all
the devices. I have heard that some offices have even had roaming
between buildings, so how could they get it like that without running
cable from the router in one building to the AP in another building? If
it comes down to it though I will either make a bunch of cables myself
and run them all over the place, or just forfeit the roaming and place
routers at random jacks in the building. The roaming would be an
impressive and convenient feature though. =)

Again, I really appreciate all the help you have provided!

From: derrick.williams@gmail.com on 27 Jan 2006 19:31
Thanks for all the helpful information William! I think WPA may be a
more secure and viable solution for me to use in this situation. By the
way I really did LOL at that picture, even in the middle of the office.
=) I do have a question about one portion though, since it seems I am
having the most trouble finding a solution for connecting all the
components.

>>(1) How in the heck will I connect all this stuff in order to get the
>>true 'roaming' effect? I have seen posts stating that all the AP's
>>must be hard wired into the one router, but that seems like ALOT of
>>wiring and extra work just to obtain smooth roaming WiFi in the office.
>>Let alone it would seem to defeat the purpose of 'wireless.' There has
>>to be a way for all this to connect without having to run tons of new
>>cable in the ceilings and walls.

>I'd only do it that way. It's possible to almost get something
>similar to mostly work properly most of the time using APs and
>repeaters, but it's going to be slow and buggy, and you mention that
>you want this to work flawlessly

This poses a small problem for me because I don't think I will be able
to run CAT-5e cable all over our building in order to connect all the
AP's to the router. Basically, it will be a random router plugged into
the wall by a conference room and all the AP's will be spread around
the building. The one jack the router uses will be a dedicated DSL
line. Is there a way to get all of these devices connected without
running ethernet cable everywhere? Perhaps any reliable wireless
solutions of connecting the AP's to the router, or would that basically
be a repeater? I have a bad feeling that these may be the only two
options, unless there's some other way.

You mentioned that you have done this twice before ... did you manually
run the cable from the router to the AP's? Was this a long distance?
I am curious as to how others have tackled this task of connecting all
the devices. I have heard that some offices have even had roaming
between buildings, so how could they get it like that without running
cable from the router in one building to the AP in another building? If
it comes down to it though I will either make a bunch of cables myself
and run them all over the place, or just forfeit the roaming and place
routers at random jacks in the building. The roaming would be an
impressive and convenient feature though. =)

Again, I really appreciate all the help you have provided!

From: William P.N. Smith on 28 Jan 2006 00:50
<derrick.williams(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>(1) How in the heck will I connect all this stuff in order to get the
>>>true 'roaming' effect? I have seen posts stating that all the AP's
>>>must be hard wired into the one router, but that seems like ALOT of
>>>wiring and extra work just to obtain smooth roaming WiFi in the office.
>>>Let alone it would seem to defeat the purpose of 'wireless.' There has
>>>to be a way for all this to connect without having to run tons of new
>>>cable in the ceilings and walls.

[I wrote]
>>I'd only do it that way. It's possible to almost get something
>>similar to mostly work properly most of the time using APs and
>>repeaters, but it's going to be slow and buggy, and you mention that
>>you want this to work flawlessly

>This poses a small problem for me because I don't think I will be able
>to run CAT-5e cable all over our building in order to connect all the
>AP's to the router.

You don't need to run cables all over the building, you call an
electrician or a data cabling company and tell them you want Cat5
drops all over the building in conference room ceilings and the like,
and they should all terminate in this wiring closet where the DSL
modem, the router, the PoE boxes, and lots of other things terminate.
They run the wires, you just do the endpoints and connectors.

You really don't want to do this with wireless repeaters. It's going
to be slow and problem-prone, everyone's going to hate it, and the guy
who gets the job after you've run screaming is going to have to run
wires everywhere. Just bite the bullet, put in the work order, and
get the wires run.

If you want you can start slow, put the router and DSL modem in the
wiring closet, and a single AP in the ceiling of the most important
conference room. When it works and they like it, see how far it goes,
and add another AP in another appropriate place. Rinse, lather,
repeat.

Remember to give each AP a unique IP address, and that changing the
WPA passphrase is going to involve changing it in each of your APs...

Too bad you are in SF, I could bid on it for you. 8*) Isn't Jeff in
your area?
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