OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?
in [Hardware]
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From: Arthur Entlich on 6 Apr 2008 09:40 Please don't infer to know what the majority of people wish my answering protocol to be on these newsgroups. I have explained the reasons I top post numerous times in various groups I post within, and you'll find them, at the top, intermingled and at the bottom of such previous requests or comments. Top postings saves me valuable time which allows me to respond to many more queries. It also saves times for many readers of my replies. Set posting positions are an old and outdated protocol, and if you find how I post more important that the information I provide, then I suggest you simply filter my posts out, if they are disturbing to you. I get VERY few complaints from people who care about this, and I actually get an equal number of people who have told me they prefer top posting in this type of forum to that of intermingled or bottom posting. Bottom posting perhaps had it's purpose when computers were slow, text was big and bulky, and systems and users required more convention. With today's much more sophisticated email clients and readers, the issue is almost moot. Also, anyone following a thread will find top posting considerably faster to read. It is a bit like sexual positions; different strokes for different folks, and although there are still many out there who think they should dictate to the world just what strokes to use, I'm of the school that they should stick to making those decisions for themselves, in the bedroom, or kitchen, or hallway, or office desk, or elevator, or... ;-) Art CBFalconer wrote: > Arthur Entlich wrote: >> Although inkjet printers have developed more refined inks and heads >> which produce a more presentable result on uncoated paper, all "fine >> art" and photographic quality papers for inkjets are still indeed >> coated, or have chemistry incorporated within them for controlling dot >> gain, and proper ink distribution to get the dynamic range required. >> >> Yes, there are a lot of uncoated papers available for inkjet use, but >> they are almost all a compromise of quality over the coated papers. > > Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed > with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all > irrelevant material. See the following links: >
From: Arthur Entlich on 6 Apr 2008 10:10 I'm sorry, but your statements are the ones that are cavalier and potentially may cause untold grief for others. Beside the fact that it is illogical to use costly coated inkjet papers in a laser printer when much less costly specialized laser papers already exists (semi gloss, glossy and others using clay based surfaces that can withstand considerable heat), laser printers use very varied heat ranges in the fusing process, and since I know of no inkjet papers that are either commercially tested in laser printers, or that provide a safe heat range indicated on their product packaging, the risk is real, and completely without purpose. Perhaps you can explain to me why you, or anyone would bother to waste costly inkjet glossy papers by putting them through a laser printer when papers costing literally one tenth that amount are available specifically for laser use? I have equivalent laser papers for nearly every surface type that is available for inkjet printers. And, although you don't know of inkjet papers that will melt under the heat of a laser printer, ask anyone who repairs laser printers regularly about the fuser replacements they have had to make due to someone running inkjet papers and films through the printer. I have even read a report of a HP laser paper that melted in a laser, but that is rare. So unless you are willing to pay the repair bills for every person who reads your generalized posting if or when their fuser is ruined by the wrong paper, or unless you are willing to indicate specifically which papers you successfully use, and also the temperature of the fuser in your printer, I will stand behind my advice both on simple good policy grounds as well as logic of not wasting money using costly inkjet paper in a laser printer when alternatives exist for that printer technology for less cost. Art kony wrote: > On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:50:20 GMT, Arthur Entlich > <e-printerhelp(a)mvps.org> wrote: > >> The risks are hard to reduce unless you specifically mention the exact >> paper type you use > > The risks are only hard to reduce because they're so low > already. You're acting as though most are a problem when > it's the opposite. Perhaps it should be left to the user to > determine what gamble they're willing to take with an > unknown variable, or test by exposing the paper to heat like > near a stove burner then checking for excessive softening. > > >> ...and have reasonable results with. One sheet of the >> wrong paper can make for a very costly repair on the laser printer. > > > True, but that's not quite the same as a blanket statement > that isn't correct. People can and do use coated paper, so > perhaps it would be better for you to list specific ones > that don't work, as it is the minority that would be a > problem. > > > >> >> Many inkjet papers, especially glossy ones, have one or more >> non-absorption layers, which may be a low melting point plastic. > > Whether you mean to or not, by omission in your statement > you seem to be implying something that is incorrect. The > vast majority of inkjet papers do not have a low melting > point plastic layer. The vast majority can go through a > laser printer fine. The types that are problematic tend to > be specifically described as to their (type of) plastic > construction. > > > > > >> As you >> say, others are safe, but only with specific knowledge is it safe to >> make a broad statement. > > True, and being conservative with someone else's printer is > a good idea. However, once someone is aware of the > conservative stance and it then comes down to details, most > coated papers don't cause a problem. If you know of any (at > all) that use a low melting point plastic layer and aren't > clearly described as containing plastic, please list those.
From: Jan Alter on 6 Apr 2008 10:14 "kony" <spam(a)spam.com> wrote in message news:vf0gv35tbkv6h3sheg4lelcl9pe2nacddm(a)4ax.com... > On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:35:19 GMT, Arthur Entlich > <e-printerhelp(a)mvps.org> wrote: > >>In general, paper designed specifically for inkjet printers should NOT >>be used in laser printers, because the paper is heated to quite a high >>temperature in a laser printer, and most inkjet printers do not heat the >>paper at all, or use very low temperatures (just to dry the ink a bit >>quicker). > > You conveniently ignored mentioning that it doesn't matter > if most types of inkjet paper get hotter. > > >> >>Most standard bond paper will indicate it can be used for both inkjet >>and laser paper. Some paper may have a finished surface to provide a >>better image than laser bond paper, and those may indicate inkjet and >>laser use. >> >>The problem is with paper that is designated for inkjet use >>specifically. It probably has a special coating on it. The glossy and >>semi-gloss types usually have some plastic or gelatin coating which may >>melt under the heat of a laser fuser. > > > It definitely has a coating, though "special" is a word > you're trying to spin towards you argument. The coating is, > like it or not, able to go through a laser printer without > problems. It is an unusual, rare rare case when it can't, > so rare that your blanket statement is incorrect. > >>However, even if they do not >>melt, the may not react properly with laser technology. Some coated >>matte papers designed for inkjets may be safe for laser printers, but >>again, it is likely more costly than the equivalent laser version. > > What happens is that if the coating is too slick, toner does > not adhere to the area. Printouts may not be clear or dirty > looking if that is a problem. > > > >> >>In general, it is best not to use papers designed for inkjet use in a >>laser printer, unless they indicate they are safe for both technologies. >> Further, in general, inkjet papers are much more costly than similar >>types of laser printer papers. For instance, a glossy laser paper may >>cost 10 to 20 cents, a similar glossy inkjet paper will cost 50 cents to >>$1.50. >> > > Glossy paper is cheaper now than it used to be. Using > coated paper in a laser seems to have become some kind of > urban myth in that everyone is saying "don't" so they have > insufficient evidence about it, just continually repeating > the myth instead. "Don't sail to the edge of the (flat) > world, you'll fall off"... and so most never tried. For my own part I try to work on the conservative side when using a laser printer and don't consider using ANY glossy stock. Kony, perhaps you could provide this audience a list, or even partial list of glossy papers that would be acceptable to lasers so that anyone desiring to use such could do so without any forethought of damage to the printer. -- Jan Alter bearpuf(a)verizon.net or jalter(a)phila.k12.pa.us
From: Arthur Entlich on 6 Apr 2008 10:48 Kony, I don't know where you get your information from. I consult with inkjet paper manufacturers, and I have done considerable inkjet paper testing over the years. When it comes to coated paper stocks, the processes used to create inkjet coated papers are simply not the same as those used to make coated papers for laser printers. They use different paper structure, different coatings, different numbers of coats, and differing technologies. Go into any retail outlet and look at the costs of the packages of coated specialty inkjet papers and compare them to similar surfaced papers for laser printers. Do you think that if the papers were actually the same that people wouldn't have figured that out and started to successfully use coated laser papers in their inkjet printers and save 80-90% in doing so for the same results? As to your last point about papers that work in both to address a larger market; paper companies, in most cases, would prefer with higher end papers to make sure they have two distinct target markets and not a merged one. It sells twice the paper that way, and, as I stated before, although the mark up may be higher on inkjet paper, it is also much more costly to manufacture because the technologies involved are more complex. The only area you will see the merging of inkjet and laser product is in the low end bond papers, because people burn through it and it is more a matter of laser paper being acceptable for low end inkjet results than the other way around. Yes, higher end inkjet designated uncoated bond paper will work well in laser printers in most cases, but again, you typically pay extra for features that do not improve the laser result. Those uncoated papers for inkjets sometimes contain mordants to help hold the ink better, use a heavier weight and more opaque paper, which sometimes has more kaolin clay added to accomplish, using a different mill and calendering process to make the surface less likely to bleed the ink, or use different fiber lengths, all of minimal importance for most laser printer results, where the toner is fused to the paper surface. I normally wouldn't even bother to argue these points with someone who is speaking just from a narrow experience base, but your potential misguidance could lead to people unnecessarily damaging their laser printer for no apparent benefit. I'm pleased you found an inkjet paper (or several) that will runs well through the laser printer you use and that it provides you with a very specialized use for transfering toner to circuitboards as a resist. People doing that, I assume, trade information to help guide them around the potential pitfalls, and that's great. Getting back to the OP, he did not mention the need to make circuit board transfers, and his question was much more general. Making broad and potentially hazardous generalizations that can lead others into a sense of ease when a degree of risk is unnecessarily involved is irresponsible in public newsgroups. Lastly, as Tony mentioned, what often will happen is over time small amounts of residue from the front or back surface of these low temperature papers will collect on the fuser rollers. Since the transit time through the fuser is of very short duration, those papers may indeed "survive" the heating process. Then one day, either as a result of this small buildup, or just happenstance and the once in a "blue moon" paper jam, the paper ends up sticking to the fuser, or spending more time on the fuser than it should, and surprise, the paper surfaces begin to melt and it either smolders and releases toxic burned plastics or other volatiles, and or melts onto the fuser ruining it, or both. I stand by my statements... putting coated inkjet papers through a laser printer is a bad idea unless you are willing to take the risk of ruining your printer, or you know of others who have successfully tested it. Art kony wrote: > On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:03:58 -0500, Tony > <tonythebengaltiger(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable >>> for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and >>> the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to >>> achieve this and most don't have a low melting point. >>> >>> I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of >>> laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo >>> paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most >>> importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates >>> when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB >>> etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact >>> many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser >>> printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT >>> that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium >>> wouldn't cause problems). >> If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then either >> the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky. > > False. Many, many people do so. > > >> I have several customers >> who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before >> using it in a laser. > > Absolutely, if it is a specific type of paper using low > melting point material it is listed as something unusual, > not just coated paper or photopaper. > > >> In some cases they have got away with it for some time and >> suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser. > > I've never claimed the risk was nonexistent, yes that is > possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm. Someone > with no need for coated paper should buy paper specifically > described as suitable for laser printers. > > On the other hand, someone who has need for coated paper > will generally find it works fine in a laser printer, now > more than ever before paper manufacturers are producing > paper that works in both types of printers because that > opens up another market segment to them. It would be less > of a gamble to try an unknown paper in a low value printer, > especially an older one as they tended to operate fuser at > higher temp. > > > >> So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not >> mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless >> the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise. >> Tony > > Ok, and most of the time that would be incorrect. Being > conservative is good, especially when it's someone else's > equipment, but being conservative to the point of ignoring > the actual facts is excessive. > > Anyone using a paper only described as coated can in fact > use it with only a very small risk. It is up to that person > what risk to take, not you or I. >
From: Arthur Entlich on 6 Apr 2008 11:01
Although I believe my last response pretty much deals with this whole ball of wax, I'll just add a few points. Most gloss and semi-gloss coated inkjet paper run through a laser printer will eventually lead to problems, such as paper jams or stuck paper on the fuser, or melted paper on the fuser. It may not happen immediately, but build up of the melted plastic can and does occur. Not all coated inkjet papers use plastics, but most glossy papers contain them or other low temperature coatings. You seem to be mixing both inkjet and laser coated papers into one barrel. There are many types of coated papers designed specifically for laser printer use. You will find single sided semi-gloss and gloss papers, double sided gloss papers, acetate sheets in color, clear and opaque forms, clay coated semi-gloss and matte surfaces for laser printers, etc. Also, some of the lower end matte coated papers with just a kaolin surface usually will go through laser printers without difficulty. These tend to be the very flat/matte surfaces. I will now leave it to individuals to determine whether they have enough reason to put inkjet paper through their laser printer or not. Art kony wrote: > On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:35:19 GMT, Arthur Entlich > <e-printerhelp(a)mvps.org> wrote: > >> In general, paper designed specifically for inkjet printers should NOT >> be used in laser printers, because the paper is heated to quite a high >> temperature in a laser printer, and most inkjet printers do not heat the >> paper at all, or use very low temperatures (just to dry the ink a bit >> quicker). > > You conveniently ignored mentioning that it doesn't matter > if most types of inkjet paper get hotter. > > >> Most standard bond paper will indicate it can be used for both inkjet >> and laser paper. Some paper may have a finished surface to provide a >> better image than laser bond paper, and those may indicate inkjet and >> laser use. >> >> The problem is with paper that is designated for inkjet use >> specifically. It probably has a special coating on it. The glossy and >> semi-gloss types usually have some plastic or gelatin coating which may >> melt under the heat of a laser fuser. > > > It definitely has a coating, though "special" is a word > you're trying to spin towards you argument. The coating is, > like it or not, able to go through a laser printer without > problems. It is an unusual, rare rare case when it can't, > so rare that your blanket statement is incorrect. > >> However, even if they do not >> melt, the may not react properly with laser technology. Some coated >> matte papers designed for inkjets may be safe for laser printers, but >> again, it is likely more costly than the equivalent laser version. > > What happens is that if the coating is too slick, toner does > not adhere to the area. Printouts may not be clear or dirty > looking if that is a problem. > > > >> In general, it is best not to use papers designed for inkjet use in a >> laser printer, unless they indicate they are safe for both technologies. >> Further, in general, inkjet papers are much more costly than similar >> types of laser printer papers. For instance, a glossy laser paper may >> cost 10 to 20 cents, a similar glossy inkjet paper will cost 50 cents to >> $1.50. >> > > Glossy paper is cheaper now than it used to be. Using > coated paper in a laser seems to have become some kind of > urban myth in that everyone is saying "don't" so they have > insufficient evidence about it, just continually repeating > the myth instead. "Don't sail to the edge of the (flat) > world, you'll fall off"... and so most never tried. |