Sim Cards
in [UK Mobile]
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From: Ivor Jones on 25 Feb 2005 13:01 Luap wrote: [snip] > I've never signed anything on PAYG > Lua You don't have to sign a contract for it to be legally binding. Simply using the service is enough. Ivor
From: Hiram Hackenbacker on 25 Feb 2005 13:35 Brian Morrison wrote: >>> As others have said, you agree to the terms when you enter into a >>> contract with the operator, but with an unregistered pre-pay SIM >>> there would be a question as to when this contract commences. >> >> >> >> When you first make or receive a call, I would guess. > > > Yes, which means that someone who buys a pre-paid phone and SIM and then > sells the SIM unopened and unused is not bound by any such agreement. > > That was the point I wanted to make. It's an interesting point - perhaps title never became yours because the shop never sold you the SIM? Perhaps the shop actually sold you a service which excludes the physical SIM? Perhaps the network always retained title to the SIM?
From: Gareth on 25 Feb 2005 13:50 "Ivor Jones" <ivor(a)despammed.invalid> wrote in message news:3897b0F5jp471U1(a)individual.net... > Gareth wrote: > > [snip] > >> You own the SIM card and this is irrespective of the T&C contract. >> If someone steals the SIM card from you they are committing the >> offence of theft (against you and not against the network). > > How can it be..? If you agree to the T&C's (and you have to to use the > network) and the T&C's state the SIM is the network's property, how can > you possibly argue otherwise..?! Because the T&Cs form part of a contract which may or may not be enforceable through the courts. In the event of a pre-pay SIM ownership of the small plastic square is not in question - you bloody own it and no argument. The problem concerns terms of use of the network and, in the same way that a bus ticket is not transferable, so the networks want to restrict your use of the SIM to you alone. The correct way for the networks to pursue the issue is through court and not through baseless legal threats that are, frankly, laughable and try to restrict your right to sell private property. Supposing, in 20 years time, I wanted to sell an "original collectors One2One SIM" - aside from the odd idea that anyone would want to collect it do you then see how silly it would be for T-Mobile to claim that I did not have the lawful right to sell it because it belonged to T-Mobile?! You are confusing 2 issues - ownership of the physical SIM card (which has been sold according to the Sale of Goods Act) and the service it may or may not allow you to access according to a set of T&Cs (a contract). The networks are using heavy handed threats about ownership of the pre-pay SIM *because* they know they cannot enforce the more vague T&Cs. Gareth.
From: Ivor Jones on 25 Feb 2005 15:34 Gareth wrote: [snip] > You are confusing 2 issues - ownership of the physical SIM card > (which has been sold according to the Sale of Goods Act) and the > service it may or may not allow you to access according to a set of > T&Cs (a contract). I'm not confusing anything. The T&C's state something in direct terms. You agree to those terms when you use the network. End of story. Ivor
From: Gareth on 25 Feb 2005 15:36
"Ivor Jones" <ivor(a)despammed.invalid> wrote in message news:389gefF5jg98bU2(a)individual.net... > Gareth wrote: > > [snip] > >> You are confusing 2 issues - ownership of the physical SIM card >> (which has been sold according to the Sale of Goods Act) and the >> service it may or may not allow you to access according to a set of >> T&Cs (a contract). > > I'm not confusing anything. The T&C's state something in direct terms. You > agree to those terms when you use the network. > > End of story. I see that trying to debate the distinction between consumer rights and T&Cs with you is a pointless exercise. Gareth. |