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From: Neil Rutman on 17 Apr 2008 16:42
"We" like it when a song gives us that strange feeling the defies being put
into words. I think that is
what the power of music is all about, and is being lost lately, a little."

Certainly the shift toward the indy movement has given us some incredible
music in spades. The radio doesn't necessarily reflect that but if you look
for it - what you want is out there.

Neil R

"Organfreak" <plonk(a)plinkety.plunk> wrote in message
news:ft4f04hpg6l3v8ao6o58u0rjg5q8e4gumn(a)4ax.com...
> "Steve Karl" <nospam(a)nospam.com> blatted:
>>Putting the vocalist in the center / middle ( middle as in 1/2 way back )
>>of the stage with some what dimmer lighting than
>>other instruments ... i.e. allowing or making other instruments "up stage"
>>( closer to the front )
>>the vocalist, ... I would see more as the role of a producer, and of
>>course the engineer would make it
>>happen.
>
> I'm wearing both hats, and I'm getting a headache! (BTW, not that it
> matters
> much, but "upstage" means farther away from the audience. Someone is
> downstage
> when they are closest to the audience. "Exit stage left" means you're
> Snaggletooth.)


From: Bill Durham on 17 Apr 2008 21:35
Organfreak wrote:
> Yeah, although I've learned a ton of important concepts right here
in this
> forum, and I still have much to learn, it's also important to me to do things in
> a different-from-expected way if it serves the art, as does the person who's
> being recorded here. That's a hallmark of true creativity, I hope. Tradition can
> lead to boredom if hewed-to too religiously, and this is my big problem with
> much of the contemporary music I hear.
>
> Hey, the song is only three minutes, why not hear for yourself? It's certainly
> not without melody or nice chord changes, it's just not what people expect to
> hear.
>

OF,

I listened to the song and I can hear everything that other people have
queried you about! Thats kinda why I waited to listen to it, to learn
some of the lingo and understand what people are describing.
I'm a huge Hammond fan.. nothing says rock and roll to me like a
screamin B3. It almost sounds like you used an old Tone Cabinet on that
first section.. no rotation at all.. is that right?
I also heard and agree with the folks that say you need to pan stuff out
more.. to create space for the vocal. This may even mean that you do a
bass instrument track to get the organ out of the middle.. and I think
that you should give a listen to hard panning the guitar and organ with
cross panned effects.. just to hear what it sounds like anyway. The
level of the vocal is not nearly as critical when there aren't other
instruments competing for the same sonic real estate.

My listening music taste is stuck in the 70s when it comes to rock
music. I really love Kansas music, such that some of the songs make me
cry when I hear them.. goes to the emotional state you talk of when you
hear the mix done just right. For me.. the mix isn't nearly as critical
as the melody, the groove, the harmony, etc. Not that a good mix won't
get me to the same place, but in the end.. its the music.

I'm also a fan of a guy named Ricky Peterson.. really good hammond
player from the Minneapolis area. He's primarily a big side man, plays
with David Sanborn, Stevie Nicks, John Mayer, etc. Just about the
tastiest player I have heard in a long time. Good Singer too!

Anyway.. my 2 cents

BD
From: Rick Paul on 18 Apr 2008 03:47
"Bill Durham" <billdurham(a)attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:vMGdnT3Seo3_2prVnZ2dnUVZ_vKunZ2d(a)comcast.com...
> this thread has been very interesting and all of the ideas and comments
> were interesting, but one thing that jumped out at me was OF's explanation
> of things like he buried the vocal because of the lyrical feel at that
> point in time. I thought this was a pretty interesting comment and I
> wonder how many other people "mix" considering what is being said vs where
> the level fits best in the mix.

I'm not sure how much I take into account what is being said at the mixing
stage -- I'd have to listen back to specific recordings to think about that
more -- but I do know I take what is being said into account at the
arrangement stage, and sometimes some of the arrangement gets tweaked at the
mixing stage. The most obvious place where that comes into play is in
background vocal arrangements. Which words/phrases to they reinforce, and
when do they say the same words as the lead vocal versus when they act more
like pads, for example with oohs and ahs? But it can also extend to other
instrumentation, be it to reinforce what is being said or provide contrast
to it. One example might be if a lyric has some irony laced into it,
perhaps something in an instrumental "answer" to a vocal phrase might get
something in there to help point up the irony, or maybe even provide a comic
effect.

Of course, the overall build of the arrangement will also be influenced by
what the lyric is saying and the development of the overall story or
situation.

> I'm not making a value judgment, just an observation. I tend to hear the
> vocal as another instrument.. listening to the timbre and quality of the
> voice and not so much the words.. so any comments?

I think this depends a lot on the type of music. Most of the music I make
tends to be heavily lyric-based, as opposed to, for example, riff- or
groove-based. In that sort of context, the vocal is the main feature, and
letting the story come through is fairly important. That is probably why
country music, which tends to be more lyric-oriented than many popular
forms, also tends to mix the vocals significantly higher than is done in
many other forms.

Rick

--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================


From: Bill Durham on 22 Apr 2008 20:00
Organfreak wrote:
>>
> Thanks BD! Awfully nice of you. I'm in the process of catching up with what
> happened in the Rock world 35 years ago. Do you really wanna know what I thought
> of that music? Probably not.
>
> These guys could really play. They were masterful. DUH! But it seemed rawther
> pretentious to me (and I come out of the world of Classical music), and as to
> what the emotional content of the music was, it escaped me. I'm sure it's there,
> I'm just on the wrong wavelength to pick it up. :-)
>
> However, it *did* inspire me to grow my hair back out, before it's too late!
>
OF... well, I couldn't expect you to be a big fan after hearing one
song. Thats called Progressive Rock and in the case of Kansas, the
emphasis is on the Rock side of the equation. Not trying to be snooty,
you probably already knew what that kind of music was. What Polymod
does these days is pretty proggy usually. That tune was the last song
on their 3rd album, and amongst the bigger fans considered the
proto-typical Kansas song.

Good luck with the hair.. I had a fro bout like a basketball back in the
day. no way in hell these days!

BD
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