The future of Ada is at risk
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From: Rico Secada on 28 Dec 2007 22:06 I have been doing a lot of research about the usage of Ada, both in industry and in the Open Source community. I am possible writing a paper on the issue and needs some constructive criticism. I have reached the following conclusions: 1. Many companies are moving away from Ada towards C/C++. Many has already moved during the past 10 years. 2. Very few projects exists on Sourceforge and Freshmeat compared to other languages like C++, Java, Python and others. Only 92 projects on Sourceforge.net and 57 on Freshmeat.net. 3. This is the biggest problem: Ada lacks free support on all platforms. The GNU GNAT Compiler is the only Open Source compiler, and it lacks proper support and implementation on a variety of platforms. The different GNU/Linux implementations of GNAT and the different BSD implementations seems to miss different aspects making it impossible to port larger projects without having to buy a proprietary compiler. My study shows, from searching around different mailing list archives on GNU/Linux and BSD, that people are very attracted towards Ada, but because of a poor implementation on different platforms when compared to C and C++ people stay away and focus on those languages instead. Problems with GNU GNAT and platform independence seems to be the one major reason why Ada isn't a moving target. I would like your comments on this please! Best regards. Rico Secada.
From: Pascal Obry on 29 Dec 2007 05:19 Rico, > I have reached the following conclusions: > > 1. Many companies are moving away from Ada towards C/C++. Many has > already moved during the past 10 years. And are having lot of problems with bugs and dead-line. At least this is my own experience on some large simulation projects. Nobody seems to master enough C++ to be able to build some sensible piece of code. A disaster! > 2. Very few projects exists on Sourceforge and Freshmeat compared to > other languages like C++, Java, Python and others. Have you looked at Savannah, repo.or.cz... And please this does not mean anything. Ada is more oriented toward the industry for high reliable softwares. You won't reach those project on any Open Source plateforms. You won't even have hint about those projects in many case as Ada is seen as a competitive tool. > Only 92 projects on Sourceforge.net and 57 on Freshmeat.net. And what! > 3. This is the biggest problem: Ada lacks free support on all > platforms. The GNU GNAT Compiler is the only Open Source compiler, and > it lacks proper support and implementation on a variety of platforms. Which platforms ? Windows and GNU/Linux are probably more than 90% of the plateforms used for Open Source projects. So what is missing ? For the industry it is out of question of using a compiler found on the Internet. It requires a commercial compiler or support. > The different GNU/Linux implementations of GNAT and the different BSD > implementations seems to miss different aspects making it impossible to > port larger projects without having to buy a proprietary compiler. Yes, and that's the recipe for success. Having a good support is invaluable for large projects. > My study shows, from searching around different mailing list archives > on GNU/Linux and BSD, that people are very attracted towards Ada, but > because of a poor implementation on different platforms when compared > to C and C++ people stay away and focus on those languages instead. Do you really think that C++ is better implemented on Windows and GNU/Linux... and portable ??? > Problems with GNU GNAT and platform independence seems to be the one > major reason why Ada isn't a moving target. > > I would like your comments on this please! In general I have some problems with your conclusions. For me it makes no sense mixing Open Source projects and commercial ones. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.net --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov on 29 Dec 2007 06:14 On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 04:06:39 +0100, Rico Secada wrote: > I have been doing a lot of research about the usage of Ada, both in > industry and in the Open Source community. I am possible writing a paper > on the issue and needs some constructive criticism. > > I have reached the following conclusions: > > 1. Many companies are moving away from Ada towards C/C++. Many has > already moved during the past 10 years. I think that the wave already passed. Everybody who didn't want Ada has get rid of it long ago. Ada has nothing to loose here. > 2. Very few projects exists on Sourceforge and Freshmeat compared to > other languages like C++, Java, Python and others. True. There is little interest in Ada among the open source movement. I think there are reasons for that. Much depends on how a programming language recruits followers and how people come into open source. But this might be more an issue of the open source model than of the language. > 3. This is the biggest problem: Ada lacks free support on all > platforms. Hmm, Ada definitely lacks support on the platforms where it were obviously superior to any other languages (massively parallel, embedded, real-time, gaming, distributed computing). But that is not *all*, though maybe they will become "key" platforms in some near future. > Problems with GNU GNAT and platform independence seems to be the one > major reason why Ada isn't a moving target. It is just unfair to address this to AdaCore. There are of course numerous problems with AdaCore's policy, but the fact is, - we have an open source industrial-strength Ada compiler thank to AdaCore efforts. Ada community is to weak to maintain an Ada compiler. Otherwise, that would have happened long time ago. Happy New Year! -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de
From: Georg Bauhaus on 29 Dec 2007 06:21 On Sat, 2007-12-29 at 04:06 +0100, Rico Secada wrote: > Problems with GNU GNAT and platform independence seems to be the one > major reason why Ada isn't a moving target. > > I would like your comments on this please! What variety of unnamed platforms do you mean? The future of Ada on OpenBSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD seems at risk. (It is not at risc on Mac OS X BSD.) Seriously, by the count of installations, isn't the future of *BSD at risk. Sadly, this might be one of the reasons why no one bothers to write a full GNAT runtime for BSD anymore. What do you mean by variety of platforms? GNAT is running and supported on every mainstream OS, including Windows NT (with or without .NET), Mac OS X, Solaris, and GNU/Linux. The number of PC OS users with a full GNAT option should thus be very close to 100%. GNAT has been ported to several major non-PC operating systems, such as VMS, VxWorks, and a few well known workstation Unices. If a goal is to port major applications to one of the other unnamed platforms, it might be best to ask those who provide Ada compilers for that platform. I'm not sure that inspecting mailing lists etc. for statistics offers either validity or reliability of data. Depending on who is to read you paper, they might find it suspicious that you pool BSD and Linux lists, and then draw conclusions that cannot be true for both platforms; GNAT (and other compilers) is a fully supported Ada compiler on GNU/Linux. The data might be good enough for goal directed marketing statistics, though. Is your paper aimed at readers in the profession? (That is, where money is involved?)
From: I. Levashew on 29 Dec 2007 11:19
Rico Secada wrote: > My study shows, from searching around different mailing list archives > on GNU/Linux and BSD, that people are very attracted towards Ada, but > because of a poor implementation on different platforms when compared > to C and C++ people stay away and focus on those languages instead. Consider tolerance of C++ programmers to their compiler and Ada programmers to their one. Maybe implementations are just on the same level :) > Problems with GNU GNAT and platform independence seems to be the one > major reason why Ada isn't a moving target. Confirmed. Personally, I don't care. Even if the OS I use is unsupported. Currently I'm happy with Debian4/VMWare (native X11). > I would like your comments on this please! There is one promising project, Open LINA. My hopes are tied with it. |