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From: Rod Speed on 2 Apr 2008 15:06
Peter Lu <swift(a)TheWorld.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote

>> Try wiping the drive with clearhdd
>> http://files.filefront.com/ClearHDDrar/;5300442;/fileinfo.html
>> If that doesnt work, try Hitachi's Drive Feature Tool.

> Hi, thanks so much for the advice. I tried clearhdd
> and it did nothing. However, Feature Tool managed
> to fix the drive, so indeed it was short-stroked.

> But, while trying to set up for re-imaging my drive
> (from the old drive), it got short-stroked again,
> probably by Windows boot-up software.

That last shouldnt be possible.

> So, I'm very concerned that a drive would be corrupted so easily.

Yeah, but I dont believe that Windows boot-up software
does that, it must be something else like a defective drive.

> While I wait for the replacement drive,

Yeah, thats what I'd do, replace it.

> I'm trying to install Windows, etc., on the "defective"
> drive just to characterize its failing behavior.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see what produces that short stroking.

>> Yes. Drives can be short stroked, appear to be smaller than they actually are.

> How and why is this done?

Its done when a drive is replaced under warranty, when the manufacturer no longer
has any stock of the drive being replaced. So they supply a more recent bigger drive
and short stroke it so that the end user gets just the drive size they paid for.

Its done with a variety of software, normally the manufacturer has their own.

> Is the short-stroking intentional?

Yep, for the reason above.

>> Nope, Hitachi does.

> Odd that the WD rep didn't know anything about short-stroking or software to fix this.

Either he's ignorant or WD has decided that they prefer not to tell people
how to reverse a short stroke, so those who get drives under warranty
dont do that with their drive when its publicised on the net or something.

>>> My drive will get replaced, so hopefully the
>>> corruption won't occur again. Perhaps the drive I
>>> have is indeed defective or arrears on firmware.

>> Possible, but unlikely.

More likely now given that the reversal of the short stroking doesnt stick.

> When I get the new drive, the first thing I will
> check is its firmware level. I'm curious if the
> "bad" drive I have has vulnerability in being
> easily and unintentionally re-configured.

Yeah, that could indeed be a fault or maybe even some stupid WD footshot.

>> Either its just got the geometry in the MBR in which case clearhdd will fix that
>> since it wipes the MBR, or its been short stroked, in which case FT will fix it.

> The drive is being short-stroked way too easily.

Indeed.

> Thanks for the help.

No problem, thats what these technical newsgroups are for.


From: Folkert Rienstra on 3 Apr 2008 10:41
Rod Speed wrote in news:65i3otF2g2ch2U1(a)mid.individual.net
> Peter Lu <swift(a)TheWorld.com> wrote
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote
>
> > > Try wiping the drive with clearhdd
> > > http://files.filefront.com/ClearHDDrar/;5300442;/fileinfo.html
> > > If that doesnt work, try Hitachi's Drive Feature Tool.
>
> > Hi, thanks so much for the advice. I tried clearhdd
> > and it did nothing. However, Feature Tool managed
> > to fix the drive, so indeed it was short-stroked.
>
> > But, while trying to set up for re-imaging my drive
> > (from the old drive), it got short-stroked again,
> > probably by Windows boot-up software.
>
> That last shouldnt be possible.
>
> > So, I'm very concerned that a drive would be corrupted so easily.
>
> Yeah, but I dont believe that Windows boot-up software
> does that, it must be something else like a defective drive.
>
> > While I wait for the replacement drive,
>
> Yeah, thats what I'd do, replace it.
>
> > I'm trying to install Windows, etc., on the "defective"
> > drive just to characterize its failing behavior.
>
> Yeah, it would be interesting to see what produces that short stroking.
>
> > > Yes. Drives can be short stroked, appear to be smaller than they actually
> > > are.
>
> > How and why is this done?

> Its done when a drive is replaced under warranty,

Nope.

> when the manufacturer no longer has any stock of the drive being replaced.
> So they supply a more recent bigger drive and short stroke it so
> that the end user gets just the drive size they paid for.

That doesn't work as it's easily undone.

>
> Its done with a variety of software, normally the manufacturer has their own.

That's not shortstroking, that's a configuration overlay.
And since even that can be removed they usually fix it with a factory
low level format where the limited capacity is fixed (non changeable).

>
> > Is the short-stroking intentional?
>
> Yep, for the reason above.

Nope.

Shortstroking (setmaxLBA) is used to present a system -that is
not capable to work with a bigger drive- with a smaller drive.

It's mainly used by "drive overlays". Drive overlays are software that
shortstroke a drive to a smaller capacity that is accepted by the system
bios and add a small program in the drives bootsector that sets it back
to the original capacity after the drive has been booted so the OS can
use the full capacity.
It can also be used to hide a secret partition from being used. It's the
software that uses that partition that unhides it whenever necessary.

>
> > > Nope, Hitachi does.
>
> > Odd that the WD rep didn't know anything about short-stroking or software
> > to fix this.
>
> Either he's ignorant or WD has decided that they prefer not to tell people
> how to reverse a short stroke, so those who get drives under warranty
> dont do that with their drive when its publicised on the net or something.
>
> > > > My drive will get replaced, so hopefully the
> > > > corruption won't occur again. Perhaps the drive I
> > > > have is indeed defective or arrears on firmware.
>
> > > Possible, but unlikely.

> More likely now given that the reversal of the short stroking doesnt stick.

And why should it. The problem is in the system, not the drive.

>
> > When I get the new drive, the first thing I will
> > check is its firmware level. I'm curious if the
> > "bad" drive I have has vulnerability in being
> > easily and unintentionally re-configured.
>
> Yeah, that could indeed be a fault or maybe even some stupid WD footshot.
>
> > > Either its just got the geometry in the MBR in which case clearhdd will
> > > fix that since it wipes the MBR, or its been short stroked, in which case
> > > FT will fix it.
>
> > The drive is being short-stroked way too easily.

> Indeed.

Nope. It's by design.

>
> > Thanks for the help.
>
> No problem, thats what these technical newsgroups are for.
From: Folkert Rienstra on 3 Apr 2008 10:41
Arno Wagner wrote in news:65emnqF2f3o5dU2(a)mid.individual.net
> Previously Peter Lu <swift(a)theworld.com> wrote:
> > I bought a WD2500BEVE drive (Western Digital 250GB 2.5"
> > IDE) to upgrade my Dell laptop and somehow in the process
> > of partitioning, formatting and Windows OS migration, its
> > geometry got corrupted and instead of being a 250GB drive,
> > it is now a 78GB drive. The corruption is on the drive
> > itself, as the 78GB shows in PC BIOS, with Knoppix Linux,
> > when the drive is put in a USB enclosure, and in WD's
> > Data Lifeguard Diagnostics. Other people have
> > successfully installed this drive on the model of my
> > laptop, so IDE controller features such as 48-bit
> > addressing should not be any issue.
>
> > WD DLG Diagnostics shows the CHS as 152139/16/63 when the
> > drive should be about 484402/16/63. I contacted WD
> > support and the rep says it can't be fixed via software
> > and must be RMA'ed. The WD DLG tools don't have any
> > abilities to change/correct the CHS configuration.
>
> > Does anyone know of any utilities that could do some
> > low-level geometry fixing on these WD drives? Can
> > anyone explain how a 250GB drive could have been
> > corrupted into a 78GB drive via software and not be
> > able to be reverted via software? I saw somewhere
> > that these drives have many layers of fancy geometry
> > translations and it's likely the same hardware
> > could be programmed to be different devices (drive
> > sizes, features, etc.), which would make sense that
> > WD does not release the software to do hardware
> > "configuration."
>
> > My drive will get replaced, so hopefully the
> > corruption won't occur again. Perhaps the drive I
> > have is indeed defective or arrears on firmware.
> > But my curiosity is aroused, and I'd really like
> > to understand what's under the covers.
>
> > Thanks for any help.
>
> It is likely not corruption. Some manufacturers (all?)
> include the possibility to down-configure drive capacities.
> This is done for business reasons, e.g. when manufacturing
> a separate 40GB drive configuration is more expensive
> than manufacuring all 80GB and just selling some a 40GB
> and others as 80GB. The reason is that even selling the
> same drive at a lower price can still turn a profit
> and gets the customer to buy your product, instead the
> cheaper 40GB drive form somebody else. Just dropping the
> price of the 80GB model down to the one of the 40GB
> model is also not an option, since then you decrease
> the profit on the 80GB model by too much.
>
> One of the ugly sides of capitalism, that sometimes
> degrading the quality of a product at additional
> cost (implementing the limiter-feature costs money....)
> makes business sense.

> Of course the drive manufacturers doe emphatically not
> want people to be able to reverse the limiting process.

Hence showing your utter nonsense above.

>
> One question: Are you sure this drive came to you with
> full capacity? You should not be able to modify
> the limit yourself, unless it is very shoddily
> implemented, which would be a reason to stay away from WD.
> After all if repartitioning can cause you to need
> professional data recovery, the product clearly is a
> health hazard...

More bullshit.

>
> Arno
From: Folkert Rienstra on 3 Apr 2008 10:43
Peter Lu wrote in news:ft0684$cf3$1(a)pcls6.std.com
> In article <65emnqF2f3o5dU2(a)mid.individual.net>,
> Arno Wagner <me(a)privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > It is likely not corruption. Some manufacturers (all?)
> > include the possibility to down-configure drive capacities.
> > This is done for business reasons, e.g. when manufacturing
> > a separate 40GB drive configuration is more expensive
> > than manufacuring all 80GB and just selling some a 40GB
> > and others as 80GB. The reason is that even selling the
> > same drive at a lower price can still turn a profit
> > and gets the customer to buy your product, instead the
> > cheaper 40GB drive form somebody else. Just dropping the
> > price of the 80GB model down to the one of the 40GB
> > model is also not an option, since then you decrease
> > the profit on the 80GB model by too much.
>
> Yes, I realize this happens. With configurable mapping,
> it's also possible that they qualify a given drive to
> be a certain size depending on how much media defect it has.

Nope. Any drive has extra capacity set aside for media defects.
Any drive has to conform to the specs set for it in the manual
and model specification. You can't just change that at will.

> They do this grading for CPU and memory (speed) as well.

But it is not changeable, as setMAXLBA was designed to be.

>
> > One of the ugly sides of capitalism, that sometimes
> > degrading the quality of a product at additional
> > cost (implementing the limiter-feature costs money....)
> > makes business sense.
> >
> > Of course the drive manufacturers doe emphatically not
> > want people to be able to reverse the limiting process.
>
> Yup.
>
> > One question: Are you sure this drive came to you with
> > full capacity? You should not be able to modify
> > the limit yourself, unless it is very shoddily
> > implemented, which would be a reason to stay away from WD.
> > After all if repartitioning can cause you to need
> > professional data recovery, the product clearly is a
> > health hazard...

> The drive was 250GB when I got it. It's getting
> short-stroked extremely easily, via some Windows
> boot-up software I believe. I totally agree with
> your assessment of its being a health hazard.

Any drive has that ability. It's a standard.

>
> Perhaps the replacement drive would have newer
> firmware that's more robust.

Not really. It can be done because it is by standard.

> Perhaps the WD rep knows about this short-stroking vulnerability

It's not a vulnerability, it's a feature. Any drive will adhere to it.

> (via some internal product advisory), and hence
> agreed to the RMA without much hassle.
>
> Thanks.
From: Rod Speed on 3 Apr 2008 16:08
Folkert Rienstra <see_reply-to(a)myweb.nl> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Peter Lu <swift(a)TheWorld.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote

>>>> Try wiping the drive with clearhdd
>>>> http://files.filefront.com/ClearHDDrar/;5300442;/fileinfo.html
>>>> If that doesnt work, try Hitachi's Drive Feature Tool.

>>> Hi, thanks so much for the advice. I tried clearhdd
>>> and it did nothing. However, Feature Tool managed
>>> to fix the drive, so indeed it was short-stroked.

>>> But, while trying to set up for re-imaging my drive
>>> (from the old drive), it got short-stroked again,
>>> probably by Windows boot-up software.

>> That last shouldnt be possible.

>>> So, I'm very concerned that a drive would be corrupted so easily.

>> Yeah, but I dont believe that Windows boot-up software
>> does that, it must be something else like a defective drive.

>>> While I wait for the replacement drive,

>> Yeah, thats what I'd do, replace it.

>>> I'm trying to install Windows, etc., on the "defective"
>>> drive just to characterize its failing behavior.

>> Yeah, it would be interesting to see what produces that short stroking.

>>>> Yes. Drives can be short stroked, appear to be smaller than they actually are.

>>> How and why is this done?

>> Its done when a drive is replaced under warranty,

> Nope.

Yep.

>> when the manufacturer no longer has any stock of the drive being
>> replaced. So they supply a more recent bigger drive and short
>> stroke it so that the end user gets just the drive size they paid for.

> That doesn't work

Corse it works.

> as it's easily undone.

Irrelevant to whether it works or not.

>> Its done with a variety of software, normally the manufacturer has their own.

> That's not shortstroking, that's a configuration overlay.

Wrong, as always.

> And since even that can be removed they usually fix it with a factory
> low level format where the limited capacity is fixed (non changeable).

Wrong, as always.

>>> Is the short-stroking intentional?

>> Yep, for the reason above.

> Nope.

Yep.

> Shortstroking (setmaxLBA) is used to present a system -that is
> not capable to work with a bigger drive- with a smaller drive.

Wrong, as always.

> It's mainly used by "drive overlays".

Wrong, as always. There is no need to have the drive present
a lower size than it actually is except when the bios locks up
with the full size, as is seen with the Award 32GB limit. And
thats done by jumper on the drive, not by short stroking anyway.

> Drive overlays are software that shortstroke a drive to a smaller
> capacity that is accepted by the system bios and add a small
> program in the drives bootsector that sets it back to the original
> capacity after the drive has been booted so the OS can use the full capacity.

Utterly mangled all over again. Thats done with a jumper on the drive,
not short stroking using software, and the overlay allows the full capacity
to be seen, not a lower capacity than the drive physically has.

> It can also be used to hide a secret partition from being used.

There are much more effective ways of doing that.

> It's the software that uses that partition that unhides it whenever necessary.

It aint done by short stroking.

>>>> Nope, Hitachi does.

>>> Odd that the WD rep didn't know anything about short-stroking or software to fix this.

>> Either he's ignorant or WD has decided that they prefer not to tell people
>> how to reverse a short stroke, so those who get drives under warranty
>> dont do that with their drive when its publicised on the net or something.

>>>>> My drive will get replaced, so hopefully the
>>>>> corruption won't occur again. Perhaps the drive I
>>>>> have is indeed defective or arrears on firmware.

>>>> Possible, but unlikely.

>> More likely now given that the reversal of the short stroking doesnt stick.

> And why should it. The problem is in the system, not the drive.

You dont know that either.

>>> When I get the new drive, the first thing I will
>>> check is its firmware level. I'm curious if the
>>> "bad" drive I have has vulnerability in being
>>> easily and unintentionally re-configured.

>> Yeah, that could indeed be a fault or maybe even some stupid WD footshot.

>>>> Either its just got the geometry in the MBR in which case clearhdd
>>>> will fix that since it wipes the MBR, or its been short stroked,
>>>> in which case FT will fix it.

>>> The drive is being short-stroked way too easily.

>> Indeed.

> Nope. It's by design.

Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

In spades when the replacement drive fixes the problem.

>>> Thanks for the help.
>>
>> No problem, thats what these technical newsgroups are for.


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