Wacom based devices and the mt kernel protocol.
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From: Mohamed Ikbel Boulabiar on 18 Jun 2010 07:30 Hi, Now we can find many multitouch devices based on wacom Wacom panel/digitizer Bamboo Pen&Touch, HP tm2, Fujitsu LifeBook T4410 & T4310, etc... it seems that these devices are supported in some way in Linux Kernel, but I want to know if they are compliant with the MT Linux protocol. N-Trig based devices and Stantum ones are the most compliant, so Wacom situation needs to be clarified specially considering they are HID devices (meaning similar to the others devices which respect the protocol). This impact very much the decision of a Linux user wanting to buy wacom mt device. Ping can you clarifie the situation of wacom based devices ? Thanks, ik. On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Henrik Rydberg <rydberg(a)euromail.se> wrote: > > g number of intelligent multi-contact and > multi-user devices, the need to send digested, filtered information > from a set of different sources within the same device is imminent. > This patch adds the concept of slots to the MT protocol. The slots > enumerate a set of identified sources, such that all MT events -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Ping Cheng on 20 Jun 2010 01:40 Hi Mohamed, I am glad that you've initiated this email thread. Otherwise, I would have to find a proper way to explain the current status of Wacom MT support. Please see my comments inline. Thank you, Ping On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 4:20 AM, Mohamed Ikbel Boulabiar <boulabiar(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Now we can find many multitouch devices based on wacom Wacom panel/digitizer > Bamboo Pen&Touch, HP tm2, Fujitsu LifeBook T4410 & T4310, etc... > > it seems that these devices are supported in some way in Linux Kernel, > but I want to know if they are compliant with the MT Linux protocol. As most of you know, the current Wacom two finger touch devices have been supported on Linux since last Oct. However, they are not supported with the current in-kernel MT protocol, aka, MT type A protocol. I know you would ask me why. The reason is simple: it doesn't support the Wacom case - finger tracking. If you wonder why I don't work with the other developers to support Wacom MT case, I can assure you that I am working with them. We will support Wacom MT devices once the appropriate protocol is available. > N-Trig based devices and Stantum ones are the most compliant, That's fair since they don't need to track the fingers. > so Wacom situation needs to be clarified specially considering they are HID > devices (meaning similar to the others devices which respect the > protocol). Well, it is not a pure HID issue. It is more of how we want to support MT on Linux issue. > This impact very much the decision of a Linux user wanting to buy wacom mt device. I think end users have already got the Linux support from Wacom. Can you share the specific issues that are preventing Linux end users from buying a Wacom MT devices? If I didn't misunderstand your point here, you are talking about Linux users, not Linux developers/hackers, right? > Ping can you clarifie the situation of wacom based devices ? What else do you need me to clarify? I am all ears and I am ready to clarify any thing that puzzles you. Ping > Thanks, > > ik. > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Henrik Rydberg <rydberg(a)euromail.se> wrote: >> >> g number of intelligent multi-contact and >> multi-user devices, the need to send digested, filtered information >> from a set of different sources within the same device is imminent. >> This patch adds the concept of slots to the MT protocol. The slots >> enumerate a set of identified sources, such that all MT events > -- > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-input" in > the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org > More majordomo info at �http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Rafi Rubin on 20 Jun 2010 15:40 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/20/10 01:35, Ping Cheng wrote: > Hi Mohamed, > > I am glad that you've initiated this email thread. Otherwise, I would > have to find a proper way to explain the current status of Wacom MT > support. Please see my comments inline. > > Thank you, > > Ping > > On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 4:20 AM, Mohamed Ikbel Boulabiar > <boulabiar(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Now we can find many multitouch devices based on wacom Wacom panel/digitizer >> Bamboo Pen&Touch, HP tm2, Fujitsu LifeBook T4410 & T4310, etc... >> >> it seems that these devices are supported in some way in Linux Kernel, >> but I want to know if they are compliant with the MT Linux protocol. > > As most of you know, the current Wacom two finger touch devices have > been supported on Linux since last Oct. However, they are not > supported with the current in-kernel MT protocol, aka, MT type A > protocol. > > I know you would ask me why. The reason is simple: it doesn't support > the Wacom case - finger tracking. If you wonder why I don't work with > the other developers to support Wacom MT case, I can assure you that I > am working with them. We will support Wacom MT devices once the > appropriate protocol is available. Er, the A protocol supports both tracked and untracked fingers (just wouldn't mix the two for a single device). Still, you probably have a point about waiting for the B protocol to make its way upstream. >> N-Trig based devices and Stantum ones are the most compliant, > > That's fair since they don't need to track the fingers. N-Trig doesn't have hardware tracking, Stantum does. >> so Wacom situation needs to be clarified specially considering they are HID >> devices (meaning similar to the others devices which respect the >> protocol). > > Well, it is not a pure HID issue. It is more of how we want to > support MT on Linux issue. Side note for Ikbel, its not clear the wacom devices actually stay HID compliant when the full protocol is active, and the basic modes are really basic (and not very useful). As my understanding of the way HID and usb stuff communicate in general, I've been growing less convinced its a protocol issue, more like an initialization problem. Still I'm not quite sure. >> This impact very much the decision of a Linux user wanting to buy wacom mt device. > > I think end users have already got the Linux support from Wacom. Can > you share the specific issues that are preventing Linux end users from > buying a Wacom MT devices? If I didn't misunderstand your point here, > you are talking about Linux users, not Linux developers/hackers, > right? I think normal users wanting to use linux for MT are generally frustrated and confused at the moment. Certainly the protocol between the wacom kernel driver and the wacom user space driver is way below the level that most are following. As developers, I think we have a strong interest in seeing wacom migrate to a shared protocol. But our interests are in pushing the functionality beyond what's currently available, and we just want to see everyone get equal access to features as we create them. I think to convince Ping (if he weren't already), and the others working on the Wacom code, we'd have to show off some of what he's going to gain by switching, and at the moment, as a community, I don't think we are quite ready, maybe soon. So, Ping, consider that I and others will have cool things to show you in the near future, and if you start migrating you will get some cool new functionality when the two waves of progress collide. Also, I think Henrik's B protocol has some cool advantages which you've demonstrated considerable interest in. So I gather you do intend to switch when its convenient? >> Ping can you clarifie the situation of wacom based devices ? > > What else do you need me to clarify? I am all ears and I am ready to > clarify any thing that puzzles you. Will Wacom be moving to more than 2 finger support in the near future? Do you already have some products on the market? Rafi > Ping > >> Thanks, >> >> ik. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkweaooACgkQwuRiAT9o609XfACeN7OgUTXusOztPHwoHbTEqF7F VwwAoKIedssO79JIzeOnkegjsBu2fLkl =QyOK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Ping Cheng on 20 Jun 2010 20:40 On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Rafi Rubin <rafi(a)seas.upenn.edu> wrote: >>> N-Trig based devices and Stantum ones are the most compliant, >> >> That's fair since they don't need to track the fingers. > > N-Trig doesn't have hardware tracking, Stantum does. Sorry for my ignorance. I don't have much time to keep track of what other devices are doing. Keeping all of my own balls rolling is more than enough work for me :). >>> so Wacom situation needs to be clarified specially considering they are HID >>> devices (meaning similar to the others devices which respect the >>> protocol). >> >> Well, it is not a pure HID issue. �It is more of how we want to >> support MT on Linux issue. > > Side note for Ikbel, its not clear the wacom devices actually stay HID compliant > when the full protocol is active, and the basic modes are really basic (and not > very useful). As my understanding of the way HID and usb stuff communicate in > general, I've been growing less convinced its a protocol issue, more like an > initialization problem. Thank you Rafi for explaining this issue. Wacom tablets have a relatively long history, longer than the time that digitizers were supported on Linux. The default HID mouse protocol was introduced due to the history, which was required by Microsoft.... We can not change history, can we :)? Wacom kept their devices consistent protocol-wise over the years. That's why even the modern digitizers default to the basic HID protocol. > Still I'm not quite sure. I think you've got the point. >>> This impact very much the decision of a Linux user wanting to buy wacom mt device. >> >> I think end users have already got the Linux support from Wacom. �Can >> you share the specific issues that are preventing Linux end users from >> buying a Wacom MT devices? If I didn't misunderstand your point here, >> you are talking about Linux users, not Linux developers/hackers, >> right? > > I think normal users wanting to use linux for MT are generally frustrated and > confused at the moment. Why do the end users get frustrated and confused? Can you share some examples from an end user's (not developer's) perspective with me? > Certainly the protocol between the wacom kernel driver > and the wacom user space driver is way below the level that most are following. By "most", do you mean most MT device drivers, or most end users, or most developers? I am eager to bring the Wacom driver to the specific level. > As developers, I think we have a strong interest in seeing wacom migrate to a > shared protocol. �But our interests are in pushing the functionality beyond > what's currently available, and we just want to see everyone get equal access to > features as we create them. �I think to convince Ping (if he weren't already), > and the others working on the Wacom code, we'd have to show off some of what > he's going to gain by switching, and at the moment, as a community, I don't > think we are quite ready, maybe soon. I do see the positive sign here. And, BTW, it is a she that you are talking to :). Don't worry, you are still taking to the same person. So, it really doesn't matter to me. But, I don't want you to get the fact from someone else and to be "puzzled" :). > So, Ping, consider that I and others will have cool things to show you in the > near future, and if you start migrating you will get some cool new functionality > when the two waves of progress collide. �Also, I think Henrik's B protocol has > some cool advantages which you've demonstrated considerable interest in. �So I > gather you do intend to switch when its convenient? Why not? Do you think I am that stupid :)? To be honest, I've been waiting for the day for a while. >>> Ping can you clarifie the situation of wacom based devices ? >> >> What else do you need me to clarify? I am all ears and I am ready to >> clarify any thing that puzzles you. > > Will Wacom be moving to more than 2 finger support in the near future? �Do you > already have some products on the market? No, we do not have 2+ finger devices on the market and I can not tell what the future would be. We'll see what it is when time comes. Any more questions :)? Ping -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Rafi Rubin on 20 Jun 2010 21:30
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/20/10 20:31, Ping Cheng wrote: > On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Rafi Rubin <rafi(a)seas.upenn.edu> wrote: >>>> N-Trig based devices and Stantum ones are the most compliant, >>> >>> That's fair since they don't need to track the fingers. >> >> N-Trig doesn't have hardware tracking, Stantum does. > > Sorry for my ignorance. I don't have much time to keep track of what > other devices are doing. Keeping all of my own balls rolling is more > than enough work for me :). > >>>> so Wacom situation needs to be clarified specially considering they are HID >>>> devices (meaning similar to the others devices which respect the >>>> protocol). >>> >>> Well, it is not a pure HID issue. It is more of how we want to >>> support MT on Linux issue. >> >> Side note for Ikbel, its not clear the wacom devices actually stay HID compliant >> when the full protocol is active, and the basic modes are really basic (and not >> very useful). As my understanding of the way HID and usb stuff communicate in >> general, I've been growing less convinced its a protocol issue, more like an >> initialization problem. > > Thank you Rafi for explaining this issue. Wacom tablets have a > relatively long history, longer than the time that digitizers were > supported on Linux. The default HID mouse protocol was introduced due > to the history, which was required by Microsoft.... We can not change > history, can we :)? > > Wacom kept their devices consistent protocol-wise over the years. > That's why even the modern digitizers default to the basic HID > protocol. > >> Still I'm not quite sure. > > I think you've got the point. > >>>> This impact very much the decision of a Linux user wanting to buy wacom mt device. >>> >>> I think end users have already got the Linux support from Wacom. Can >>> you share the specific issues that are preventing Linux end users from >>> buying a Wacom MT devices? If I didn't misunderstand your point here, >>> you are talking about Linux users, not Linux developers/hackers, >>> right? >> >> I think normal users wanting to use linux for MT are generally frustrated and >> confused at the moment. > > Why do the end users get frustrated and confused? Can you share some > examples from an end user's (not developer's) perspective with me? Sorry, I've been too focused on the n-trig users. They have been frustrated, and I've seen from the forums that some have been playing with customized versions of both the kernel and wacom x driver to get your two finger gestures. I'm also projecting my own frustrations, seeing the X mt interface still not quite set, and very little in the way of applications that use mt at all. We're still quite a ways away from seeing the full potential of a more hands on desktop. >> Certainly the protocol between the wacom kernel driver >> and the wacom user space driver is way below the level that most are following. > > By "most", do you mean most MT device drivers, or most end users, or > most developers? I am eager to bring the Wacom driver to the specific > level. End users, they don't tend to care about the internal protocols as long as their programs do what they want. >> As developers, I think we have a strong interest in seeing wacom migrate to a >> shared protocol. But our interests are in pushing the functionality beyond >> what's currently available, and we just want to see everyone get equal access to >> features as we create them. I think to convince Ping (if he weren't already), >> and the others working on the Wacom code, we'd have to show off some of what >> he's going to gain by switching, and at the moment, as a community, I don't >> think we are quite ready, maybe soon. > > I do see the positive sign here. And, BTW, it is a she that you are > talking to :). Don't worry, you are still taking to the same person. > So, it really doesn't matter to me. But, I don't want you to get the > fact from someone else and to be "puzzled" :). Um, what can I say, the hazards of interacting with just text in a language curiously lacking in proper androgynous pronouns. Please forgive my ignorance particularly culturally. >> So, Ping, consider that I and others will have cool things to show you in the >> near future, and if you start migrating you will get some cool new functionality >> when the two waves of progress collide. Also, I think Henrik's B protocol has >> some cool advantages which you've demonstrated considerable interest in. So I >> gather you do intend to switch when its convenient? > > Why not? Do you think I am that stupid :)? To be honest, I've been > waiting for the day for a while. Not at all, I'm just incompetent at subtle nudging. >>>> Ping can you clarifie the situation of wacom based devices ? >>> >>> What else do you need me to clarify? I am all ears and I am ready to >>> clarify any thing that puzzles you. >> >> Will Wacom be moving to more than 2 finger support in the near future? Do you >> already have some products on the market? > > No, we do not have 2+ finger devices on the market and I can not tell > what the future would be. We'll see what it is when time comes. Any > more questions :)? Nope, I think I've put my foot in it enough for the evening :-) Rafi -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwevgQACgkQwuRiAT9o60+k9QCdEPogsLgVUDc7K/vqWNvjd/yS IYwAoPyS0hOuqS51Dlft011EInnrx7+J =mPjC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ |