What Year Did Jazz Die
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From: Julian on 18 Oct 2005 01:33 On 17 Oct 2005 19:56:17 -0700, davemil1(a)cs.com wrote: >In keeping with Uncle Russ's thread (Hi, Uncle Russ), the following is >an e-mail I recently sent to Ramsey Lewis after viewing a public TV >program he moderated which was aired locally this past July. <gruesome details edited out> Dave, What a dismal opinion! It made me sick to read. Julian
From: davemil1 on 18 Oct 2005 09:54 Hi Julian: Well, I'm sorry I made you sick. You've heard my opinions. Let's hear yours. Are you a listener, musician, recording engineer? Are your experiences different than mine and Uncle Russ'? Maybe we're missing something. Your turn. Regards, Dave
From: Jay Kadis on 18 Oct 2005 11:14 In article <1129643668.888885.204240(a)g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, davemil1(a)cs.com wrote: > Hi Julian: > > Well, I'm sorry I made you sick. You've heard my opinions. Let's hear > yours. Are you a listener, musician, recording engineer? Are your > experiences different than mine and Uncle Russ'? Maybe we're missing > something. Your turn. > > Regards, Dave > I'm not Julian but I'll give you my perspective. I grew up in the '60s and I am primarily a rock and blues devotee. I've played guitar for 40 years and written and recorded music for 30. I always regarded jazz as my parents' music and held the a bit of skepticism about the "jazz snob" approach to music. Recently, my wife and I have begun a musical project performing the music of Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Washington, Sarah Vaughn and the great composers of early/mid 20th century American jazz and blues. Although I'm approaching this material more from a blues perspective, I will tell you straight up this is the most interesting music I've played. The melodies and lyrics (OK, not ALL the lyrics...) are still interesting and fresh and lend themselves to improvisation in a way no current popular music does. As musicians of my generation age, we are beginning to appreciate the music that came before rock'n'roll. While this has lead to a lot of rockers doing questionable versions of the classics, it may also lead to a re-discovery of this great catalog of musical material and hopefully to a new resurgence of popularity. And the way it will be performed will add a new life as it incorporates the musicians' experiences in newer musical forms into the compositions. No musical form is dead as long as it's performed by dedicated musicians. There are plenty of "early music" devotees if you know where to look. Certainly this musical form is far from the mainstream but it is alive nonetheless. Jazz in all its forms is far more visible than early music and I'm hard pressed to see how you can consider it dead. It may have mutated as it evolved but it isn't dead. -Jay -- x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x
From: Julian on 19 Oct 2005 09:06 On 18 Oct 2005 06:54:28 -0700, davemil1(a)cs.com wrote: >Hi Julian: > >Well, I'm sorry I made you sick. You've heard my opinions. Let's hear >yours. Are you a listener, musician, recording engineer? Are your >experiences different than mine and Uncle Russ'? Maybe we're missing >something. Your turn. > >Regards, Dave Dave, First of all, thanks for your civil reply. It seems like a rare courtesy on this group at times. I do agree with you and Uncle Russ. My reply immediately before yours to Uncle Russ' post should make it clear I do agree with him. As for you I can hardly disagree with anything you say, it's just your pessimistic attitude that's hard for me to take. I'm not generally a Pollyanna but I live in Seattle where we arguably have the best jazz radio station in the world, KPLU. It's playing in my car every day. We have Garfield High School, Quincy Jones' alma mata, whose students consistently bring home first prize in national jazz contests. It's gotten so that the other local high schools are so tired of Garfield always winning that several other Seattle schools have been also ranking in the top honors nationally. We probably have the best young jazz players in the country here. We have several dance clubs of young adults 20 - 30 years old who are big time into Swing Dancing and Lindy Hop. I know of a dozen places that teach swing dancing. As I said in a previous post I believe it was when people stopped dancing, that jazz began to decline. With people dancing to jazz here it's hard for me to see jazz as dying. I know we are unique nationally, but IMO jazz is staying alive even though not thriving on a large scale. I agree with you that musicians now don't match up to the masters of the past but I hardly think it is to be expected. Jazz and Swing was a phenomenon of the times. They were times when our culture had much different values and a much different personality. You blame the downfall of jazz on be bop, but you underestimate the cultural changes that came about with the end of World War II. Be Bop, Rock and Roll, Country and Western were all reaction to the changing times and are positive developments IMO. You blame the fall of jazz on be bop, but I ask if the cerebral performance orientated un-danceable, self indulgent noise that be bop turned into was the cause of jazz's decline or instead a reaction to the fact no one ever danced to it any more? Benny Goodman, the King of Swing was like Elvis (the King of Rock and Roll) or the Beatles in his time. Kids all over the country flocked to his performances. When that phenomenon changed, the whole music and the whole culture changed as a result. You can't expect times NOT to change. I am appalled by the way you trash be bop in general. The early Be Bop musicians were geniuses IMO. Charlie Parker really got it IMO and carried through the whole idea of jazz improvisation started by Coleman Hawkins and others to it's logical conclusion. After that it just plain went down hill. Consider Miles Davis whose Bitches Brew is probably the worst album ever made in my opinion but who also made Kind of Blue, the very best album ever made IMO. At least he mastered the old style first. Whatever you might say about Monk, if I could ever play 1/10th as creatively as him, I'd die a happy man. I also agree with you about the old piano players who as you say played with all ten fingers. I love the early stride masters and those like Fats Waller who followed. But I also appreciate minimalism. My very favorite pianist ever, Teddy Wilson who knew how to play with all ten of his fingers, but he also knew how to keep the left hand down to 2 notes when it suited the music. Nat King Cole is another guy who knew how to keep it simple but tasteful, not to mention some of Duke Ellington's work. I can hardly believe the way you trashed Ramsey Lewis and Nancy Wilson. You seem to understand jazz possibly far better than me, but why the hell tear 'em up like that? No doubt you are completely right and the show sucked big time, but don't forget they're a couple of old has beens just trying to make some dough. Let them be, Dave. Also you don't know what the producers wanted. The bad show might not have been their entire fault. Sure the young kids these days don't measure up to the old masters who lived when jazz was the culture instead of having to go way far out of your way to be part of it. Why should you expect otherwise? There are youngsters who do get it, like the young man you talk about in your own band. The old recordings are still around to listen to. They'll always be there for those who have ears to hear. They will never disappear and there will always be a talented few who are inspired to bring some of these elements into their own music. Jazz will never return to it's hey day, but it will never die. As for me, since you asked, I've been playing standards since I was a 10-year-old taking accordion lessons. I've never been a professional musician, although I considered doing so in my 20's. I've worked as a broadcast engineer building radio and video studios for the past 12 years and for 20 years before that I was an audio engineer. I currently have a little swing band as a hobby. We don't play a lot of gigs, but it is way fun and I am lucky to be joined by some great swing players on occasion. I play piano and do the arrangements. We play straight ahead 1935 - 1945 stuff by the classic composers with a few more modern things, Latin numbers and other surprises thrown in just so it doesn't get too predicable. Last time we played, over 300 people danced to us. It's hard for me to think jazz is dead. Julian
From: Uncle Russ on 19 Oct 2005 15:45
Good stuff, Julian, and I agree with nearly all of it. (Except, despite your own experiences, I reluctantly think jazz is on death's doorstep for reasons within and beyond its control.) Interesting that you should mention the swing clubs. Recently I played as a "special guest star" with a pretty successful group in Southern California that caters specifically to swing dancers, Jonathan Stout's Campus Five and his big band. He works more than any straight jazz band I know and captures the feel of the '35 to '45 era very well. Of course, nobody can make a living from the band and most players generally aren't up to the level of the better stuff from 70 years ago and Jonathan himself freely admits there's no future in it. Still, the big band played for a big three-day swing dance festival called "Camp Hollywood" and it was really exciting. I thought for certain we were seeing just the tip of an iceberg but Jonathan explained the days of the swing dance revival are long gone and things are declining. I should add that Jonathan is 24, most musicians in his band are in their 20s through 40s, and the dancers were also within that age group. (Man, it's great to see pretty girls on the floor instead of the usual audience of people so old they have trouble walking.) So, if any kind of jazz can make a comeback, it will have to get people up and dancing as enthusiastically and athletically as I saw at that festival. I'd love to be one of the musicians to make it happen. And I'm all but certain that some variant of swing and swing dancing would be the key. Despite my pessimism, I plan to keep playing and promoting. It ain't over 'til it's over!! "Uncle Russ" Reinberg WESTLAKE PUBLISHING COMPANY www.finescalerr.com WESTLAKE RECORDS www.westlakerecords.com "Julian" <JulianPAdamsNo(a)SpamHotmail.Com> wrote in message news:fmgcl15s0h5ctlma2mvibln7t9sl8k6t8t(a)4ax.com... > On 18 Oct 2005 06:54:28 -0700, davemil1(a)cs.com wrote: > >>Hi Julian: >> >>Well, I'm sorry I made you sick. You've heard my opinions. Let's hear >>yours. Are you a listener, musician, recording engineer? Are your >>experiences different than mine and Uncle Russ'? Maybe we're missing >>something. Your turn. >> >>Regards, Dave > > Dave, > > First of all, thanks for your civil reply. It seems like a rare > courtesy on this group at times. > > I do agree with you and Uncle Russ. My reply immediately before yours > to Uncle Russ' post should make it clear I do agree with him. As for > you I can hardly disagree with anything you say, it's just your > pessimistic attitude that's hard for me to take. > > I'm not generally a Pollyanna but I live in Seattle where we arguably > have the best jazz radio station in the world, KPLU. It's playing in > my car every day. We have Garfield High School, Quincy Jones' alma > mata, whose students consistently bring home first prize in national > jazz contests. It's gotten so that the other local high schools are > so tired of Garfield always winning that several other Seattle schools > have been also ranking in the top honors nationally. We probably have > the best young jazz players in the country here. We have several > dance clubs of young adults 20 - 30 years old who are big time into > Swing Dancing and Lindy Hop. I know of a dozen places that teach > swing dancing. As I said in a previous post I believe it was when > people stopped dancing, that jazz began to decline. With people > dancing to jazz here it's hard for me to see jazz as dying. I know we > are unique nationally, but IMO jazz is staying alive even though not > thriving on a large scale. > > I agree with you that musicians now don't match up to the masters of > the past but I hardly think it is to be expected. Jazz and Swing was > a phenomenon of the times. They were times when our culture had much > different values and a much different personality. You blame the > downfall of jazz on be bop, but you underestimate the cultural changes > that came about with the end of World War II. Be Bop, Rock and Roll, > Country and Western were all reaction to the changing times and are > positive developments IMO. You blame the fall of jazz on be bop, but > I ask if the cerebral performance orientated un-danceable, self > indulgent noise that be bop turned into was the cause of jazz's > decline or instead a reaction to the fact no one ever danced to it any > more? Benny Goodman, the King of Swing was like Elvis (the King of > Rock and Roll) or the Beatles in his time. Kids all over the country > flocked to his performances. When that phenomenon changed, the whole > music and the whole culture changed as a result. You can't expect > times NOT to change. > > I am appalled by the way you trash be bop in general. The early Be > Bop musicians were geniuses IMO. Charlie Parker really got it IMO and > carried through the whole idea of jazz improvisation started by > Coleman Hawkins and others to it's logical conclusion. After that it > just plain went down hill. Consider Miles Davis whose Bitches Brew is > probably the worst album ever made in my opinion but who also made > Kind of Blue, the very best album ever made IMO. At least he mastered > the old style first. Whatever you might say about Monk, if I could > ever play 1/10th as creatively as him, I'd die a happy man. > > I also agree with you about the old piano players who as you say > played with all ten fingers. I love the early stride masters and > those like Fats Waller who followed. But I also appreciate > minimalism. My very favorite pianist ever, Teddy Wilson who knew how > to play with all ten of his fingers, but he also knew how to keep the > left hand down to 2 notes when it suited the music. Nat King Cole is > another guy who knew how to keep it simple but tasteful, not to > mention some of Duke Ellington's work. > > I can hardly believe the way you trashed Ramsey Lewis and Nancy > Wilson. You seem to understand jazz possibly far better than me, but > why the hell tear 'em up like that? No doubt you are completely right > and the show sucked big time, but don't forget they're a couple of old > has beens just trying to make some dough. Let them be, Dave. Also > you don't know what the producers wanted. The bad show might not have > been their entire fault. > > Sure the young kids these days don't measure up to the old masters who > lived when jazz was the culture instead of having to go way far out of > your way to be part of it. Why should you expect otherwise? There > are youngsters who do get it, like the young man you talk about in > your own band. The old recordings are still around to listen to. > They'll always be there for those who have ears to hear. They will > never disappear and there will always be a talented few who are > inspired to bring some of these elements into their own music. Jazz > will never return to it's hey day, but it will never die. > > As for me, since you asked, I've been playing standards since I was a > 10-year-old taking accordion lessons. I've never been a professional > musician, although I considered doing so in my 20's. I've worked as a > broadcast engineer building radio and video studios for the past 12 > years and for 20 years before that I was an audio engineer. I > currently have a little swing band as a hobby. We don't play a lot of > gigs, but it is way fun and I am lucky to be joined by some great > swing players on occasion. I play piano and do the arrangements. We > play straight ahead 1935 - 1945 stuff by the classic composers with a > few more modern things, Latin numbers and other surprises thrown in > just so it doesn't get too predicable. Last time we played, over 300 > people danced to us. It's hard for me to think jazz is dead. > > Julian > > |