What Year Did Jazz Die
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From: Julian on 11 Oct 2005 06:15 On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 00:06:43 -0700, Bob Vandiver <bobv(a)hellyeah.com> wrote: >I have felt for some time that jazz died the year that BeBop was born, >which was close to the time rock was born, plus or minus a couple of >years. > >Up until then Jazz held sway over huge numbers of people. With BeBop >jazz became cerebral instead of fun. Yes I have to agree and it's more than my own personal preference for swing and standards. And it is also not to deny that Monk and Miles are two of my favorites ever. But at that time it became less the pop music of the day and rock and r&b started to creep into that role for the masses instead. I don't think jazz ever died. I listen and practice it and perform it about every day of my life, and some of the new artists I hear on the radio are simply brilliant. The real question is - When did it stop being king? I agree with this post that time is rock started capturing the attention of teenagers across the country and when bebop started taking over jazz. Julian
From: Willie K. Yee, MD on 11 Oct 2005 07:25 Having read most of this thread, I have tried to come up with an answer. Now I realize why I cannot. -=%#=> What is the meaning of "dead" in this context? <=#%=- Nobody is playing the music. Still alive. Nobody is creating a complete new creative form that engages the rest of the culture? Died with Coltrane. Nobody is creating hits (i.e. not many people are buying it)? Died with Louis. The music is the dominant music of the culture? Died with the big bands and the ascendence of bebop and rock. Nobody is creating anything interesting at all. Still alive, though weakening, maybe on life support. People treat it as though it were dead. Murdered. Numerous suspects including Preservation Hall, Dixieland, Winton Marsalis, Stanley Crouch, Ken Burns. Did I answer your question?
From: hank alrich on 16 Oct 2005 21:51 Bob Vandiver wrote: > I have felt for some time that jazz died the year that BeBop was born, > which was close to the time rock was born, plus or minus a couple of > years. Some years ago there was an interview in _Keyboard_ with Marcus Roberts. He said that same thing. He said that when the jazzers forgot that social music was mostly to dance to they gave it all up to rock 'n' roll. He also said (and mind you, he's a jazz pianist) that jazzers should stop bitching about rock 'n' roll becuase they brought this on themselves by indulging themselves in cerebral technicality. -- ha
From: Uncle Russ on 17 Oct 2005 04:19 As I suggested when Bob first posted his answer, I couldn't agree more. But it is very rare to read such words by an actual JAZZ guy. Most musicians today think jazz BEGAN with bebop and completely miss the significance of earlier jazz. Maybe they're like people who think movies didn't count until they were in color. Or maybe they think that any music that affects gut level emotions is beneath them. Or maybe they just lack the ability to play the right notes and don't want to admit it. ANY "art form" that fails strongly to impact the emotions (usually in a positive way) is doomed. ANY "art form" that exists to serve snobs is doomed. ANY "art form" that needs colleges and universities to help it survive (e.g., today's jazz) is doomed. ANY "art form" that falls into any of the above categories is not really art. Don't believe it? Live a century or two and find out for yourself .... And ANY person who fails to understand the above lacks analytical skills, a sense of history, sufficient intelligence, or all three. And none of the above should suggest that post 1945 jazz players, as a whole, are not more learned, sophisticated, or technically proficient than many of their predecessors. It's just that, after a while, musicians -- or artists in nearly any discipline -- tend to forget the reason their genre became popular or try to make more of it than they should. (Yeah, we know why they did it, but who cares? Can you say, "Entropy"?) When I went to grad school, the professors wanted us to use big words, convoluted sentences, and to express simple ideas in a complicated way. I finally figured out it was because they wanted some people to think we were much smarter than we really were. I also realized a lot of professors are (figuratively) idiots. Then I went into TV news and a really intelligent guy told me to use small words and simple sentences. It was hard. Especially when I had to explain something complicated. Eventually I realized you can't say something simply and clearly to an average guy until you truly understand it yourself. When, as a musician, I turned pro, my mentor (a veteran of the Louis Armstrong All-Stars, an arranger for Benny Goodman, and a major talent in his own right) asked me why I played so many notes. And Artie Shaw pointed out to me that jazz ran into big trouble around the time musicians started saying such things as, "I play, like, jazz." (We were talking about Miles Davis.) He said it's either jazz or it isn't. If it's "'like' jazz", it's not jazz; but it may be something related to jazz. It was one of his wry "jokes". So one day it all came together and I figured it out for myself. Less is more. Simple usually out-classes complex and it is a lot harder to be simple. Emotion in music invariably trumps intellect. And I realized many jazz guys from the '20s through the mid '40s understood how to reach an audience MUSICALLY and EMOTIONALLY. And I realized the bop and post bop guys reached us intellectually but failed to reach us on a gut level as well as their predecessors. And I realized what jazz was supposed to be all about. And I stopped trying to impress other musicians. And I started to play a lot better. (And I even achieved a better understanding of how to record jazz.) When enough other musicians figure that stuff out, jazz may have a shot at a comeback ... if anybody gives it a chance. But it is unlikely the corrupt corporate bureaucracy would allow it onto the radio. Unless somebody else already has made a lot of money with it .... "Uncle Russ" Reinberg WESTLAKE PUBLISHING COMPANY www.finescalerr.com WESTLAKE RECORDS www.westlakerecords.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hank alrich" <walkinay(a)thegrid.net> > Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 6:51 PM > Subject: Re: What Year Did Jazz Die > > >> Bob Vandiver wrote: >> >>> I have felt for some time that jazz died the year that BeBop was born, >>> which was close to the time rock was born, plus or minus a couple of >>> years. >> >> Some years ago there was an interview in _Keyboard_ with Marcus Roberts. >> He said that same thing. He said that when the jazzers forgot that >> social music was mostly to dance to they gave it all up to rock 'n' >> roll. He also said (and mind you, he's a jazz pianist) that jazzers >> should stop bitching about rock 'n' roll becuase they brought this on >> themselves by indulging themselves in cerebral technicality. >> >> -- >> ha
From: Julian on 17 Oct 2005 18:31
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:19:41 -0700, "Uncle Russ" <uncruss(a)adelphia.net> wrote: >As I suggested when Bob first posted his answer, I couldn't agree more. But >it is very rare to read such words by an actual JAZZ guy. Most musicians > today think jazz BEGAN with bebop and completely miss the significance of > earlier jazz. Maybe they're like people who think movies didn't count until >they were in color. Or maybe they think that any music that affects gut >level emotions is beneath them. Or maybe they just lack the ability to play >the right notes and don't want to admit it. Interesting comments Russ. And I also couldn't agree more with your preference to play less notes, something I am still personally trying hard to learn. I really think it was pre 1945 when jazz was at it's peak. It was the music of the time, on Broadway in dance halls and movies. Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, the Gershwins, Fats Waller, Rogers and Hart, Jerome Kern - these guys were the greatest composers of American Music EVER. Not to belittle the accomplishments of Bird, Monk, Miles, Dizzy and Coltrane by any means, but they were already playing in a market where kids were dancing to rock and roll. One answer is Jazz died when more people started dancing to other styles of music. Julian |