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From: Bob Cox on 6 May 2008 00:00
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 00:17:09 +0300, Dotan Cohen (dotancohen(a)gmail.com) wrote:

> 2008/5/6 Bob Cox <debian-user(a)lists.bobcox.com>:
> >> Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and
> >> I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But
> >> unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble.
> >
> > It all looks ok from here using mutt. I am seeing each character
> > separated by a dash or hyphen.
> >
>
> If so, then I have friends who would want to see your .mutt or .muttrc
> or whatever config file that program uses.
>
> Can you confirm that the aleph "א" is the rightmost character, and
> that the tav "ת" is the leftmost character? Thanks.

Yes, I can confirm that.

The only relevant line in my ~/.muttrc I can find is

set charset="utf-8"

--
Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK.
Registered user #445000 with the Linux Counter - http://counter.li.org/
From: Bob Proulx on 6 May 2008 00:30
Dotan Cohen wrote:
> Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew.

Mutt works fine. The problem, if one exists, is what font the
terminal is using in which mutt is running. The font must support
UTF-8 or it can't display those characters properly. If someone is
using a classic 9x15 ASCII font for example it will be unable to
display the extended characters. The "gibberish" text will only
display as a row of dashes and spaces.

> א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

I see all of the characters in mutt and in emacs editing this reply
but only because I am running inside of an xterm that is using a
Unicode font. When I send this with mutt it will attempt to send
using us-ascii and failing that it will attempt to send using
iso-8859-1 and if that fails it will send it in UTF-8. That is the
default encoding order because it reflects the widest support
available. It is possible to change the ordering in mutt using the
send_charset variable such as in this following. (But I usually leave
it the default value since that seems to work okay too.)

# Default: "us-ascii:iso-8859-1:utf-8"
set send_charset="us-ascii:utf-8"

In order to try out UTF-8 in a temporary way try this following set of
commands. First install some Unicode fonts.

sudo apt-get install xfonts-efont-unicode xfonts-efont-unicode-ib

That will get some basic Unicode fonts onto the machine. Then look at
the docs that have been installed. The README.Debian file has some
very good information.

pager /usr/share/doc/xfonts-efont-unicode/README.Debian
Basically: -efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-16-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1

Then to try it temporarily (use an appropriate UTF-8 LANG, I am using
en_US.UTF-8 but that is just for the example, and this illustrates my
Unix mind-set that the sort order should be standard order and not
dictionary order by setting LC_COLLATE too):

LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C xterm -fn -efont-fixed-medium-r-normal--16-160-75-75-c-80-iso10646-1

That should bring up an xterm with Unicode support and a Unicode
font. Running mutt or emacs or so forth in such a terminal should be
enabled for full UTF-8 characters.

The xlsfonts command can be used to list out fonts that match
patterns. Something like the following is interesting. (And leads me
to wonder why there are no 18 or 20 point fonts in the efont package?)

xlsfonts -fn '-*-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1'

For better or for worse I settled on using the following in my
personal ~/.Xresources file to configure XTerm. It is all very much
personal taste. These work well for me but I know that everyone has
their own preferences. YMMV and all of that.

XTerm*font:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal--16-160-75-75-c-80-iso10646-1
XTerm*Font2:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1
XTerm*Font3:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1
XTerm*Font4:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-16-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1
XTerm*Font5:-misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--18-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1
XTerm*Font6:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-24-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1
XTerm*fontMenu*fontdefault*Label:Default 16
XTerm*fontMenu*font1*Label:Unreadable 2
XTerm*fontMenu*font2*Label:Tiny 12
XTerm*fontMenu*font3*Label:Small 14
XTerm*fontMenu*font4*Label:Medium 16
XTerm*fontMenu*font5*Label:Large 18
XTerm*fontMenu*font6*Label:Huge 24

I am sure that the GNOME and KDE folks have similar settings available
to them. I am using FVWM and XTerm.

Also I have installed a *LOT* of other fonts. They are a very large
disk hog. But I like to be able to see text as intended to be
displayed. Also it is nice to see WikiPedia pages with all of the
correct symbols and without all of the missing font boxes. I am still
missing a few but most of them are visible to me. :-)

apt-cache search ttf- | grep ^ttf-

Bob
From: Andrei Popescu on 6 May 2008 02:20
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:20:32PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew.
>
> Mutt works fine. The problem, if one exists, is what font the
> terminal is using in which mutt is running. The font must support
> UTF-8 or it can't display those characters properly. If someone is
> using a classic 9x15 ASCII font for example it will be unable to
> display the extended characters. The "gibberish" text will only
> display as a row of dashes and spaces.
>
> > א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
>
> I see all of the characters in mutt and in emacs editing this reply
> but only because I am running inside of an xterm that is using a
> Unicode font. When I send this with mutt it will attempt to send

I am running mutt with mlterm (multilingual terminal) and it doesn't
show correctly. I experimented with xfce4-terminal and fonts and I can
tell it's not the font (I use Terminus). Does anybody know how to make
mlterm display everything right?

Regards,
Andrei
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)
From: CaT on 6 May 2008 03:00
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 09:08:57AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:20:32PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
> > > א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
>
> I am running mutt with mlterm (multilingual terminal) and it doesn't
> show correctly. I experimented with xfce4-terminal and fonts and I can
> tell it's not the font (I use Terminus). Does anybody know how to make
> mlterm display everything right?

Tru rxvt-unicode (there are 3 flavours in debian and I compile my own
so I can't tell you which one to try). It's what I use (infact for me
it's mutt in screen over ssh in urxvt :) and the above looks like what
may well be Hebrew.

The other thing you may wish to make sure of is that you are using a
UTF-8 locale. For me that's en_AU.UTF-8. If you don't you'll probably
see a lot of question marks (I know I do).

cat.


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From: NN_il_Confusionario on 6 May 2008 03:00
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:20:32PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
> The problem, if one exists, is what font the terminal is using
> sudo apt-get install xfonts-efont-unicode xfonts-efont-unicode-ib

What about the linux console?

I suspect that the answer will be that the linux console is right now
not able to display at the same time eastern european, asiatic, arabic
and hebrev characters (perhaps unless one uses someting experimental
like uterm whose source seems to not be available at its homepage
http://members.aceweb.com/hanpaul/ ).

So the next question is:

What is the combination of "decent" X-terminal and font (and screen
resolution for X, and refresh rate) such that, when run in a window
manager which is able to use full screen windoes (like ratpoison, icewm,
evilwm and many others) looks the *same* as a linux ("standard" or
framebuffer) console?

I was never be able to find nor a decent terminal nor a decent (i.e.
console like) font.

(a terminal which uses gnome or kde libraries is not decent for my
pourposes. gtk only or qt only might or might not be. xlib only surely
is)

--
Chi usa software non libero avvelena anche te. Digli di smettere.
Informatica=arsenico: minime dosi in rari casi patologici, altrimenti letale.
Informatica=bomba: intelligente solo per gli stupidi che ci credono.


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