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From: Pete Dashwood on 4 Jul 2008 19:38
From time to time here in CLC we have discussed aspects of freelancing and
some of the pitfalls to watch out for.

The whole contract programming scenario has undergone serious change during
the last 30 years, at least, it has in Europe. I remember the heady days of
cowboy agencies that were mostly unregulated, with spreads of 70%, and
cowboy contractors who would write CVs to fit the job and be quite happy to
be fired after 3 months, when their incompetence became apparent, then go
and repeat the process at the next unsuspecting client.

I know we've had discussions here about contracting and there have been some
very good points raised.

However, New York city seems to be still on the wild frontier. I was there
on business once many years ago (on behalf of a recruitment agency back in
the UK which I had an interest in) and wherever I went people kept making me
outrageous deals in an effort to recruit me, even though I wasn't looking
for a job... :-) I found the whole experience quite amusing. I encountered
blatant racism, bigotry, and an insularity I have found nowhere else in the
world. Most of the people I met had no idea about a world outside NY city
and were not interested. Their attitude was that to live and work there was
the epitome of any career and by being there you had actually "arrived".
They couldn't understand why I would gently and politely decline a chance to
live and work there. That was in the 1980s. I left with a feeling of
affection for the diversity and sheer "in your face" brashness of the place
:-). (And the food was amazing... always important in my book :-))

From posts made here regarding contracting and some of the practices used by
recruitment agents, it seems to me like Americans have to put up with much
more than their European counterparts. I'm not pretending for a moment that
there are not dubious practices used by recruitment agencies in Europe, but
in Germany, for example, interviews with the client are conducted with the
agent present, so that all three parties can communicate openly (and
politely), and in the UK agencies cannot get onto preferred supplier lists
for major corporations unless they agree to limit their spread (usually to
15%). They are "rewarded" by getting more placements and this keeps it
viable for all parties.

I was interested to read this article which addresses recruitment in New
York city for programmers. Although the writer is addressing .NET
programmers, the advice given is sound for any kind of contracting. What
interested me is why he would choose to single out New York city as
requiring special attention... :-)

http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/UploadFile/Consulting/Article/mgold/NetogiationDotNet06022008005855AM/NetogiationDotNet.aspx

Comments?

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."


From: Robert on 4 Jul 2008 23:31
On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 11:38:12 +1200, "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:

>I was interested to read this article which addresses recruitment in New
>York city for programmers. Although the writer is addressing .NET
>programmers, the advice given is sound for any kind of contracting. What
>interested me is why he would choose to single out New York city as
>requiring special attention... :-)

New York is a city run by amateurs. It's expensive because everything is so inefficient.
New Yorkers have the hubris to think their city is the commercial capital of the US, even
though they've never been anywhere else. Their bigotry is especially strong against The
South and New Jersey. In fact, the only industries based in New York are finance and
publishing. Finance (the stock market) is boom-and-bust and fraught with scandal.
Publishing is a sinking ship because it is stuck with obsolete technology.

New York seems like a foreign country where nothing works the same as the rest of the US.
When I'm there, I keep saying "Back in the US they do it this way .. "

Yes, the food is good, but it's better in Houston and Los Angeles.

I know New York well because I was born and raised there.
From: Pete Dashwood on 5 Jul 2008 01:39


"Robert" <no(a)e.mail> wrote in message
news:9dpt649gs7uocgbtdc6acq760maletv2l6(a)4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 11:38:12 +1200, "Pete Dashwood"
> <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>>I was interested to read this article which addresses recruitment in New
>>York city for programmers. Although the writer is addressing .NET
>>programmers, the advice given is sound for any kind of contracting. What
>>interested me is why he would choose to single out New York city as
>>requiring special attention... :-)
>
> New York is a city run by amateurs. It's expensive because everything is
> so inefficient.
> New Yorkers have the hubris to think their city is the commercial capital
> of the US, even
> though they've never been anywhere else. Their bigotry is especially
> strong against The
> South and New Jersey. In fact, the only industries based in New York are
> finance and
> publishing. Finance (the stock market) is boom-and-bust and fraught with
> scandal.
> Publishing is a sinking ship because it is stuck with obsolete technology.
>
> New York seems like a foreign country where nothing works the same as the
> rest of the US.
> When I'm there, I keep saying "Back in the US they do it this way .. "
>
> Yes, the food is good, but it's better in Houston and Los Angeles.

I've had some fabulous meals in Los Angeles. :-) (And great steaks in Texas
and Tennessee, though I haven't been to Houston.)

Finance and Publishing, eh?...:-)

I'm sure there are many New Yorkers in other industries who would disagree.
:-)

>
> I know New York well because I was born and raised there.

Fair enough. Do you think things have changed since 911? Is there more
awareness of a bigger world or is this just something that still doesn't
exist outside NYC? I was staggered by the insularity. For most of the
people I met, anything that happened outside NYC was simply irrelevant. I
see you noted this also.

Did you have any thoughts on the advice in the article, Robert? Would you
say this is accurate for NYC today?

I think most of us take the place where we are born and raised for granted,
and grow up believing there has to be something better somewhere else.
Often, the passage of time and consequent mellowing allows us to see it
differently when older. I LOVE being home after 30 odd years of traipsing
round the planet, but when I was a teenager I couldn't wait to escape... :-)
Unfortunately, I can't quite afford to quit just yet, and it is likely I'll
have to do some more travelling before I can finally turn in my template...
:-)

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."




From: Louis Krupp on 5 Jul 2008 05:45
Pete Dashwood wrote:

<snip>
> ... and an insularity I have found nowhere else in the
> world. Most of the people I met had no idea about a world outside NY city
> and were not interested. Their attitude was that to live and work there was
> the epitome of any career and by being there you had actually "arrived".
> They couldn't understand why I would gently and politely decline a chance to
> live and work there.
<snip>

Surely, you've seen this:

http://www.posters.seindal.dk/p1218372_A_View_of_the_World_from_Ninth_Avenue.html

Louis
From: Alistair on 5 Jul 2008 07:34
On 5 Jul, 06:39, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:
> "Robert" <n...(a)e.mail> wrote in message
>
> news:9dpt649gs7uocgbtdc6acq760maletv2l6(a)4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 11:38:12 +1200, "Pete Dashwood"
> > <dashw...(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz>
> > wrote:
>
> >>I was interested to read this article which addresses recruitment in New
> >>York city for programmers. Although the writer is addressing .NET
> >>programmers, the advice given is sound for any kind of contracting. What
> >>interested me is why he would choose to single out New York city as
> >>requiring special attention... :-)
>
> > New York is a city run by amateurs. It's expensive because everything is
> > so inefficient.
> > New Yorkers have the hubris to think their city is the commercial capital
> > of the US, even
> > though they've never been anywhere else. Their bigotry is especially
> > strong against The
> > South and New Jersey. In fact, the only industries based in New York are
> > finance and
> > publishing. Finance (the stock market) is boom-and-bust and fraught with
> > scandal.
> > Publishing is a sinking ship because it is stuck with obsolete technology.
>
> > New York seems like a foreign country where nothing works the same as the
> > rest of the US.
> > When I'm there, I keep saying "Back in the US they do it this way .. "
>
> > Yes, the food is good, but it's better in Houston and Los Angeles.
>
> I've had some fabulous meals in Los Angeles. :-) (And great steaks in Texas
> and Tennessee, though I haven't been to Houston.)
>
> Finance and Publishing, eh?...:-)
>
> I'm sure there are many New Yorkers in other industries who would disagree.
> :-)
>
>
>
> > I know New York well because I was born and raised there.
>
> Fair enough. Do you think things have changed since 911? Is there more
> awareness of a bigger world or is this just something that still doesn't
> exist outside NYC?  I was staggered by the insularity. For most of the
> people I met, anything that happened outside NYC was simply irrelevant. I
> see you noted this also.
>
> Did you have any thoughts on the advice in the article, Robert? Would you
> say this is accurate for NYC today?
>
> I think most of us take the place where we are born and raised for granted,
> and grow up believing there has to be something better somewhere else.
> Often, the passage of time and consequent mellowing allows us to see it
> differently when older. I LOVE being home after 30 odd years of traipsing
> round the planet, but when I was a teenager I couldn't wait to escape... :-)
> Unfortunately, I can't quite afford to quit just yet, and it is likely I'll
> have to do some more travelling before I can finally turn in my template....
> :-)
>
> Pete.
> --
> "I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think that you will find that the tactics used by agencies
highlighted in the article apply to agencies wherever in the world
that they operate.

One tactic that the article omitted is 'Making up the numbers' where
the agency has to put forward 6 people for a position but only has two
willing qualified candidates. They then look around for 4 bodies to
make up the numbers.

Something that the article hints at is that you as the prospective
employee are out to get the best possible deal for yourself, the
client is out to get the best possible deal for themselves and the
agent is out to make as much money as possible. It is of little
interest to the agency as to how good a fit you are for the position
if they can shoe-horn you in for long enough to get their pay-off.
Consequently, some agencies will give you the answers to aptitude
tests to allow you to get an in. As long as your ignorance does not
get discovered before the agents' pay cheques arrive so much the
better. Whether you will be happy in place or not does not enter the
mind of the agent. I think of this as 'body-shopping' or 'white slave
trading'.

I have only encountered two agents whom I would trust (out of the
hundreds I have spoken to). Neither is in the business any more.
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