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From: Archimedes Plutonium on 21 Jul 2010 01:38


SolomonW wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:28:09 -0700 (PDT), Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
>
> > In order to make the bow, some sort of intestine string
> > had to be found. So that would date the first domestication and the
> > slaughter and butchering of animal meat.
>
>
> Why is domestication a requirement? Bow strings were made from linen, flax
> and hemp. Of course wild animal could be used too.

Let us call it the Logic--physics tool to make the best hypothesis, of
course we would
then need perhaps field evidence to clinch the hypothesis.

We use Logic and some physics principles such as least-energy to
transition into major
turning points.

So we want to know about inventions of drills, drill firebox, bow
firebox, bow and arrow. When were they invented? And was that the
chain sequence of invention. Nothing says that was the
chain sequence, except that logic and least energy would imply that
you could not have the
bow and arrow before you had the bow firebox for the reason that the
concept of a string propelling a arrow takes too much energy to
conceive, whereas if you had a bow firebox
in extant use, that some accident or some reflective ancient person
would be playing around with the bow firebox and accidently propell
the drill as an arrow. You see, that circumstance requires least
energy over the circumstance of some ancient person behaving like a
Edison
of his time. Then there is the least energy that you need a steady
flow and supply of string for the bow firebox and so the string would
thus invent the bow and arrow after the bow firebox.

The idea of linen and flax is too much energy for that invention at
that time, because that scenerio implies you had Edison type work
shops going out and looking for material to make
string. Only after the bow and arrow were present for a long time,
would someone think of taking reeds and then flax and linen and using
that as a string replacement. Whereas the intestine of butchered
animals near the campfire would have gained so much attention that the
first string would definetely been intestine. And that least energy
implies rampant domestication, for it is too much to think of
wandering hunters coming upon a carcass every now and then and hauling
it and the intestines back to camp.
What about the first rope? That is an intrigueing question. It would
obviously come after the first string from intestine where a large gut
is
butchered or perhaps were several small guts are interwoven, and found
to be strong to support a human in a tree or on rock cliff.

Alot of this is Occam's razor and principle of least energy. So in
answer about domestication
is that it is more likely to have occurred in rampant domestication
rather than not.

Archimedes Plutonium
http://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium/
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
From: Tom McDonald on 21 Jul 2010 09:20
On Jul 21, 12:38 am, Archimedes Plutonium
<plutonium.archime...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> SolomonW wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:28:09 -0700 (PDT), Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
>
> > > In order to make the bow, some sort of intestine string
> > > had to be found. So that would date the first domestication and the
> > > slaughter and butchering of animal meat.
>
> > Why is domestication a requirement? Bow strings were made from linen, flax
> > and hemp. Of course wild animal could be used too.
>
> Let us call it the Logic--physics tool to make the best hypothesis, of
> course we would
> then need perhaps field evidence to clinch the hypothesis.
>
> We use Logic and some physics principles such as least-energy to
> transition into major
> turning points.
>
> So we want to know about inventions of drills, drill firebox, bow
> firebox, bow and arrow. When were they invented? And was that the
> chain sequence of invention. Nothing says that was the
> chain sequence, except that logic and least energy would imply that
> you could not have the
> bow and arrow before you had the bow firebox for the reason that the
> concept of a string propelling a arrow takes too much energy to
> conceive, whereas if you had a bow firebox
> in extant use, that some accident or some reflective ancient person
> would be playing around with the bow firebox and accidently propell
> the drill as an arrow. You see, that circumstance requires least
> energy over the circumstance of some ancient person behaving like a
> Edison
> of his time. Then there is the least energy that you need a steady
> flow and supply of string for the bow firebox and so the string would
> thus invent the bow and arrow after the bow firebox.
>
> The idea of linen and flax is too much energy for that invention at
> that time, because that scenerio implies you had Edison type work
> shops going out and looking for material to make
> string. Only after the bow and arrow were present for a long time,
> would someone think of taking reeds and then flax and linen and using
> that as a string replacement. Whereas the intestine of butchered
> animals near the campfire would have gained so much attention that the
> first string would definetely been intestine. And that least energy
> implies rampant domestication, for it is too much to think of
> wandering hunters coming upon a carcass every now and then and hauling
> it and the intestines back to camp.
> What about the first rope? That is an intrigueing question. It would
> obviously come after the first string from intestine where a large gut
> is
> butchered or perhaps were several small guts are interwoven, and found
> to be strong to support a human in a tree or on rock cliff.
>
> Alot of this is Occam's razor and principle of least energy. So in
> answer about domestication
> is that it is more likely to have occurred in rampant domestication
> rather than not.
>
> Archimedes Plutoniumhttp://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium/
> whole entire Universe is just one big atom
> where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

This is, as might be said in another ng, not even wrong.

First, it is probable that string was one of the first inventions of
hunter-gatherers, almost certainly more than a million years ago. It
makes collecting wild food far more efficient than relying on what one
could carry in two hands. (Of course, it is likely that using a piece
of animal hide came even earlier; and that by itself shoots AP's
thesis re: domestication down in screaming sheets of fire.)

Some methods of string-making are very simple, and involve nothing
more than breaking up appropriate plant stems and rolling the
resultant threads together, generally on one's thigh. Of course, even
this simple string-making is likely to have taken tens of millenia to
achieve; but human prehistory had a couple of thousand of millenia
with which to play. (Time is very, very long, and people can get very,
very bored or creative when the mood strikes.)

The bow fire-drill (from whence comes the 'box', btw?) probably did
precede the bow that propelled a projectile. It is possible, too, that
a strung bowed stick used as a musical instrument also preceded the
arrow-propeller; and is more likely to have given rise to the idea of
bow + stick = shot stick than the loosely-strung fire drill bow. But
this is speculation, of course.

It's clear that AP subscribes to a version of the view of human
prehistory that might be summed up as 'waiting for the malls to open'.
Folks just wandered, relatively aimlessly and without much curiosity,
through random environments, happening on food, etc., purely by
chance. (Where intentional domestication of large animals fits in this
scenario, I can't begin to imagine.) This, again, is so ignorant of
actual human behavior as to be not even wrong. For one thing, anyone
who did this would die, and take their family down with them.
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