user mode to kernel mode I/O via named pipes
in [Device Drivers]
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From: Don Burn on 10 May 2008 06:55 Kerem, I cannot spell them out, but having tried the samples that have showed up on this, they all crash the system, either immediately or with a system stress test. Then if you go look at the undocumented calls, you start finding that they are not accurately documented. Finally, even the ones that do work (until stress) are very slow, so why bother? -- Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK) Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting Website: http://www.windrvr.com Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr Remove StopSpam to reply "Kerem G�mr�kc�" <kareem114(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:uQEM2alsIHA.4848(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > Hi Tim, > >>Too many special cases to handle. > > Can you tell some special cases that must be taken care of, please,... > I did not use any kernel pipe stuff for inter driver communication yet. > So what do we have to take care of or what special cases can someone > expect,...? > > > Regards > > Kerem > > > -- > ----------------------- > Beste Gr�sse / Best regards / Votre bien devoue > Kerem G�mr�kc� > Microsoft Live Space: http://kerem-g.spaces.live.com/ > Latest Open-Source Projects: http://entwicklung.junetz.de > ----------------------- > "This reply is provided as is, without warranty express or implied." > > "Tim Roberts" <timr(a)probo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:2t6a24lpvicge63ripcjerbu9pjr3igssp(a)4ax.com... >> mirage2k2 <mirage2k2(a)discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: >> > >> >I have always performed I/O between user mode and kernel mode via > traditional >> >IOCTRL. I have seen examples where named pipes have been used. My >> >understanding is that using named pipes is possible but non-standard and >> >should be avoided. Any comments. >> >> I agree with Maxim. I actually implemented a user/kernel pair that used >> named pipes, and in the end I tore it out and implemented an ioctl >> scheme. >> Too many special cases to handle. >> -- >> Tim Roberts, timr(a)probo.com >> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc. > >
From: Pavel A. on 10 May 2008 07:56 Then, how these pipes manage to work between usermode processes? Is the problem only in (erroneous) use of undocumented calls? Regards, --PA "Don Burn" <burn(a)stopspam.windrvr.com> wrote in message news:#LUfVxosIHA.524(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > Kerem, > > I cannot spell them out, but having tried the samples that have > showed up on this, they all crash the system, either immediately or with a > system stress test. Then if you go look at the undocumented calls, you > start finding that they are not accurately documented. Finally, even > the ones that do work (until stress) are very slow, so why bother? > > > -- > Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK) > Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting > Website: http://www.windrvr.com > Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr > Remove StopSpam to reply > > > > "Kerem G�mr�kc�" <kareem114(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:uQEM2alsIHA.4848(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >> Hi Tim, >> >>>Too many special cases to handle. >> >> Can you tell some special cases that must be taken care of, please,... >> I did not use any kernel pipe stuff for inter driver communication yet. >> So what do we have to take care of or what special cases can someone >> expect,...? >> >> >> Regards >> >> Kerem >> >> >> -- >> ----------------------- >> Beste Gr�sse / Best regards / Votre bien devoue >> Kerem G�mr�kc� >> Microsoft Live Space: http://kerem-g.spaces.live.com/ >> Latest Open-Source Projects: http://entwicklung.junetz.de >> ----------------------- >> "This reply is provided as is, without warranty express or implied." >> >> "Tim Roberts" <timr(a)probo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> news:2t6a24lpvicge63ripcjerbu9pjr3igssp(a)4ax.com... >>> mirage2k2 <mirage2k2(a)discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: >>> > >>> >I have always performed I/O between user mode and kernel mode via >> traditional >>> >IOCTRL. I have seen examples where named pipes have been used. My >>> >understanding is that using named pipes is possible but non-standard >>> >and >>> >should be avoided. Any comments. >>> >>> I agree with Maxim. I actually implemented a user/kernel pair that used >>> named pipes, and in the end I tore it out and implemented an ioctl >>> scheme. >>> Too many special cases to handle. >>> -- >>> Tim Roberts, timr(a)probo.com >>> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc. >> >> > >
From: Don Burn on 10 May 2008 07:58 I'm suspect it is the undocumented calls, once I saw the performance I took the approach of when I see them in a driver, rip it out, why bother with something that provides no benefit. -- Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK) Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting Website: http://www.windrvr.com Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr Remove StopSpam to reply "Pavel A." <pavel_a(a)NOwritemeNO.com> wrote in message news:Oxvt9RpsIHA.4476(a)TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > Then, how these pipes manage to work between usermode processes? > Is the problem only in (erroneous) use of undocumented calls? > > Regards, > --PA > > "Don Burn" <burn(a)stopspam.windrvr.com> wrote in message > news:#LUfVxosIHA.524(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >> Kerem, >> >> I cannot spell them out, but having tried the samples that have >> showed up on this, they all crash the system, either immediately or with >> a system stress test. Then if you go look at the undocumented calls, you >> start finding that they are not accurately documented. Finally, even >> the ones that do work (until stress) are very slow, so why bother? >> >> >> -- >> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK) >> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting >> Website: http://www.windrvr.com >> Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr >> Remove StopSpam to reply >> >> >> >> "Kerem G�mr�kc�" <kareem114(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:uQEM2alsIHA.4848(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>> Hi Tim, >>> >>>>Too many special cases to handle. >>> >>> Can you tell some special cases that must be taken care of, please,... >>> I did not use any kernel pipe stuff for inter driver communication yet. >>> So what do we have to take care of or what special cases can someone >>> expect,...? >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Kerem >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ----------------------- >>> Beste Gr�sse / Best regards / Votre bien devoue >>> Kerem G�mr�kc� >>> Microsoft Live Space: http://kerem-g.spaces.live.com/ >>> Latest Open-Source Projects: http://entwicklung.junetz.de >>> ----------------------- >>> "This reply is provided as is, without warranty express or implied." >>> >>> "Tim Roberts" <timr(a)probo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>> news:2t6a24lpvicge63ripcjerbu9pjr3igssp(a)4ax.com... >>>> mirage2k2 <mirage2k2(a)discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >I have always performed I/O between user mode and kernel mode via >>> traditional >>>> >IOCTRL. I have seen examples where named pipes have been used. My >>>> >understanding is that using named pipes is possible but non-standard >>>> >and >>>> >should be avoided. Any comments. >>>> >>>> I agree with Maxim. I actually implemented a user/kernel pair that >>>> used >>>> named pipes, and in the end I tore it out and implemented an ioctl >>>> scheme. >>>> Too many special cases to handle. >>>> -- >>>> Tim Roberts, timr(a)probo.com >>>> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc. >>> >>> >> >>
From: Pavel A. on 10 May 2008 08:24 IMHO it would be nice to have "uniform" way to talk to services, whether they are kernel drivers or normal usermode services. Ioctls are only for kernel drivers. I'd like to be able to eventually move my stuff out of kernel (by same reasons as for moving drivers to UMDF), but keep same interface. If pipes are out, what else is left - maybe lpc? --PA "Don Burn" <burn(a)stopspam.windrvr.com> wrote in message news:e$XInUpsIHA.2064(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > I'm suspect it is the undocumented calls, once I saw the performance I > took the approach of when I see them in a driver, rip it out, why bother > with something that provides no benefit. > > > -- > Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK) > Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting > Website: http://www.windrvr.com > Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr > Remove StopSpam to reply > > > > > "Pavel A." <pavel_a(a)NOwritemeNO.com> wrote in message > news:Oxvt9RpsIHA.4476(a)TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... >> Then, how these pipes manage to work between usermode processes? >> Is the problem only in (erroneous) use of undocumented calls? >> >> Regards, >> --PA >> >> "Don Burn" <burn(a)stopspam.windrvr.com> wrote in message >> news:#LUfVxosIHA.524(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>> Kerem, >>> >>> I cannot spell them out, but having tried the samples that have >>> showed up on this, they all crash the system, either immediately or with >>> a system stress test. Then if you go look at the undocumented calls, >>> you start finding that they are not accurately documented. Finally, >>> even the ones that do work (until stress) are very slow, so why bother? >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK) >>> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting >>> Website: http://www.windrvr.com >>> Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr >>> Remove StopSpam to reply >>> >>> >>> >>> "Kerem G�mr�kc�" <kareem114(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:uQEM2alsIHA.4848(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>>> Hi Tim, >>>> >>>>>Too many special cases to handle. >>>> >>>> Can you tell some special cases that must be taken care of, please,... >>>> I did not use any kernel pipe stuff for inter driver communication yet. >>>> So what do we have to take care of or what special cases can someone >>>> expect,...? >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Kerem >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Beste Gr�sse / Best regards / Votre bien devoue >>>> Kerem G�mr�kc� >>>> Microsoft Live Space: http://kerem-g.spaces.live.com/ >>>> Latest Open-Source Projects: http://entwicklung.junetz.de >>>> ----------------------- >>>> "This reply is provided as is, without warranty express or implied." >>>> >>>> "Tim Roberts" <timr(a)probo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>>> news:2t6a24lpvicge63ripcjerbu9pjr3igssp(a)4ax.com... >>>>> mirage2k2 <mirage2k2(a)discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >I have always performed I/O between user mode and kernel mode via >>>> traditional >>>>> >IOCTRL. I have seen examples where named pipes have been used. My >>>>> >understanding is that using named pipes is possible but non-standard >>>>> >and >>>>> >should be avoided. Any comments. >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Maxim. I actually implemented a user/kernel pair that >>>>> used >>>>> named pipes, and in the end I tore it out and implemented an ioctl >>>>> scheme. >>>>> Too many special cases to handle. >>>>> -- >>>>> Tim Roberts, timr(a)probo.com >>>>> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > >
From: Kerem G�mr�kc� on 10 May 2008 11:36 Hi Don, >why bother with something that provides no benefit. No reason to,...i just was interessted in the things that wont work. I dont want to use anything from the undocumented pipe calls. The OCTRL's are good and sufficient at all,... Regards Kerem -- ----------------------- Beste Gr�sse / Best regards / Votre bien devoue Kerem G�mr�kc� Microsoft Live Space: http://kerem-g.spaces.live.com/ Latest Open-Source Projects: http://entwicklung.junetz.de ----------------------- "This reply is provided as is, without warranty express or implied." "Don Burn" <burn(a)stopspam.windrvr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:e$XInUpsIHA.2064(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > I'm suspect it is the undocumented calls, once I saw the performance I > took the approach of when I see them in a driver, rip it out, why bother > with something that provides no benefit. > > > -- > Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK) > Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting > Website: http://www.windrvr.com > Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr > Remove StopSpam to reply > > > > > "Pavel A." <pavel_a(a)NOwritemeNO.com> wrote in message > news:Oxvt9RpsIHA.4476(a)TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... >> Then, how these pipes manage to work between usermode processes? >> Is the problem only in (erroneous) use of undocumented calls? >> >> Regards, >> --PA >> >> "Don Burn" <burn(a)stopspam.windrvr.com> wrote in message >> news:#LUfVxosIHA.524(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>> Kerem, >>> >>> I cannot spell them out, but having tried the samples that have >>> showed up on this, they all crash the system, either immediately or with >>> a system stress test. Then if you go look at the undocumented calls, >>> you start finding that they are not accurately documented. Finally, >>> even the ones that do work (until stress) are very slow, so why bother? >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK) >>> Windows 2k/XP/2k3 Filesystem and Driver Consulting >>> Website: http://www.windrvr.com >>> Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr >>> Remove StopSpam to reply >>> >>> >>> >>> "Kerem G�mr�kc�" <kareem114(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:uQEM2alsIHA.4848(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>>> Hi Tim, >>>> >>>>>Too many special cases to handle. >>>> >>>> Can you tell some special cases that must be taken care of, please,... >>>> I did not use any kernel pipe stuff for inter driver communication yet. >>>> So what do we have to take care of or what special cases can someone >>>> expect,...? >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Kerem >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Beste Gr�sse / Best regards / Votre bien devoue >>>> Kerem G�mr�kc� >>>> Microsoft Live Space: http://kerem-g.spaces.live.com/ >>>> Latest Open-Source Projects: http://entwicklung.junetz.de >>>> ----------------------- >>>> "This reply is provided as is, without warranty express or implied." >>>> >>>> "Tim Roberts" <timr(a)probo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>>> news:2t6a24lpvicge63ripcjerbu9pjr3igssp(a)4ax.com... >>>>> mirage2k2 <mirage2k2(a)discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >I have always performed I/O between user mode and kernel mode via >>>> traditional >>>>> >IOCTRL. I have seen examples where named pipes have been used. My >>>>> >understanding is that using named pipes is possible but non-standard >>>>> >and >>>>> >should be avoided. Any comments. >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Maxim. I actually implemented a user/kernel pair that >>>>> used >>>>> named pipes, and in the end I tore it out and implemented an ioctl >>>>> scheme. >>>>> Too many special cases to handle. >>>>> -- >>>>> Tim Roberts, timr(a)probo.com >>>>> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > >
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