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From: Steven D'Aprano on 11 Apr 2010 12:53
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:08:44 -0700, Mensanator wrote:

>> > 3.x won't be adopted by developers until it's fixed. As of now, it's
>> > seriously broken and unsuitable for production.
>>
>> In what ways do you consider it broken?
>
> Issue 8093. Remarkably, this apparently hasn't been noticed before.

I think that tells you that it's an unimportant bug that doesn't really
effect many people much, and a million miles from implying that Python
3.x is "seriously broken and unsuitable for production".


> I expect 2.7 will be around for a long time.

As reported on the bug tracker, this bug effects Python 2.7 as well. It's
possible this bug goes back to, what? Python 2.5? 2.4? 2.3? Older? Who
knows?

http://bugs.python.org/issue8093#msg102818

In any case, IDLE is one IDE out of many, and not really up to
professional quality -- it's clunky and ugly. It isn't Python, it is a
tool written in Python.


--
Steven
From: Terry Reedy on 11 Apr 2010 13:00
On 4/11/2010 12:08 AM, Mensanator wrote:
> On Apr 10, 7:15�pm, Chris Rebert<c...(a)rebertia.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Mensanator<mensana...(a)aol.com> wrote:

>>> 3.x won't be adopted by developers until it's fixed. As of now, it's
>>> seriously broken and unsuitable for production.

Not. Many though will wait until 3.2 and greater library availability,
which *is* coming.

>> In what ways do you consider it broken?
>
> Issue 8093.

IDLE is not Python. And are you really sure this is 3.x-only problem or
that it is not a Windows-only problem.

> Remarkably, this apparently hasn't been noticed before.

Because it requires somewhat rare circumstances. Start an infinite loop
from IDLE, perhaps specifically on Windows. Try to restart. Patiently
wait for restart to happen (several seconds, and iffy) instead of
killing the runaway process from TaskManager.

> I expect 2.7 will be around for a long time.

That was always expected independently of this issue.

Terry Jan Reedy


From: Joaquin Abian on 11 Apr 2010 13:34
On Apr 11, 6:53 pm, Steven D'Aprano <st...(a)REMOVE-THIS-
cybersource.com.au> wrote:
>
> In any case, IDLE is one IDE out of many, and not really up to
> professional quality -- it's clunky and ugly. It isn't Python, it is a
> tool written in Python.
>
> --
> Steven

But this is a tool that is a part of the python distribution and often
recommended to python beginners as their first IDE. So IDLE is
responsible for the first impression on Python to many.
If IDLE is considered as of low quality and ugly, after so many years,
why it is not fixed or replaced?.
I'm just wondering.
joaquin
From: Mensanator on 11 Apr 2010 14:54
On Apr 11, 11:53�am, Steven D'Aprano <st...(a)REMOVE-THIS-
cybersource.com.au> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:08:44 -0700, Mensanator wrote:
> >> > 3.x won't be adopted by developers until it's fixed. As of now, it's
> >> > seriously broken and unsuitable for production.
>
> >> In what ways do you consider it broken?
>
> > Issue 8093. Remarkably, this apparently hasn't been noticed before.
>
> I think that tells you that it's an unimportant bug that doesn't really
> effect many people much,

It affects me ... a LOT.

> and a million miles from implying that Python
> 3.x is "seriously broken and unsuitable for production".

Maybe because I'm a user, not a developer.

>
> > I expect 2.7 will be around for a long time.
>
> As reported on the bug tracker, this bug effects Python 2.7 as well. It's
> possible this bug goes back to, what? Python 2.5? 2.4? 2.3? Older? Who
> knows?

I can't imagine my not having noticed this before.
It's plausible I might not have noticed the runaway
processes, but the fact that I can't eject a USB
drive would have been very obvious.

>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue8093#msg102818
>
> In any case, IDLE is one IDE out of many, and not really up to
> professional quality -- it's clunky and ugly. It isn't Python, it is a
> tool written in Python.

You have no idea what the cause is, yet you're
certain that the symptom is confined to IDLE.

That's the kind of thinking that leads to such
bugs in the first place.

>
> --
> Steven

From: Mensanator on 11 Apr 2010 15:32
On Apr 11, 12:00�pm, Terry Reedy <tjre...(a)udel.edu> wrote:
> On 4/11/2010 12:08 AM, Mensanator wrote:
>
> > On Apr 10, 7:15 pm, Chris Rebert<c...(a)rebertia.com> �wrote:
> >> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Mensanator<mensana...(a)aol.com> �wrote:
> >>> 3.x won't be adopted by developers until it's fixed. As of now, it's
> >>> seriously broken and unsuitable for production.
>
> Not. Many though will wait until 3.2 and greater library availability,
> which *is* coming.

Which comes first, library availability or
a working system?

>
> >> In what ways do you consider it broken?
>
> > Issue 8093.
>
> IDLE is not Python.

The Task Manager doesn't say "IDLE", it says "pytonw".

> And are you really sure this is 3.x-only problem

No, I didn't say it was, just that that's where
I noticed it. I haven't been using the latest 2.x
upgrades because I switched to 3.x.

> or
> that it is not a Windows-only problem.

Could very well be. But when YOU target a specific
operating system, isn't the onus on YOU to make it
work within that system? If you're not content to
be a big fish in a small pond, then you better
figure out a way to make it work.

>
> > Remarkably, this apparently hasn't been noticed before.
>
> Because it requires somewhat rare circumstances. Start an infinite loop
> from IDLE, perhaps specifically on Windows. Try to restart. Patiently
> wait for restart to happen (several seconds, and iffy)

Not iffy at all. If it responds to the menu and I can
click on Restart, it succeeds.

> instead of
> killing the runaway process from TaskManager.

Why on earth would I want to do that? Then I lose
the entire history of whats printed in the window.
You've got a serious problem if you expect the
TaskManager to be used for normal operations.

>
> > I expect 2.7 will be around for a long time.
>
> That was always expected independently of this issue.

I hear 2.7 doesn't work either. I'll back off on that
comment.

>
> Terry Jan Reedy

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