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From: Steven D'Aprano on 11 Apr 2010 19:01
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:34:50 -0700, Joaquin Abian wrote:

> On Apr 11, 6:53 pm, Steven D'Aprano <st...(a)REMOVE-THIS-
> cybersource.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> In any case, IDLE is one IDE out of many, and not really up to
>> professional quality -- it's clunky and ugly. It isn't Python, it is a
>> tool written in Python.
>>
>> --
>> Steven
>
> But this is a tool that is a part of the python distribution and often
> recommended to python beginners as their first IDE. So IDLE is
> responsible for the first impression on Python to many. If IDLE is
> considered as of low quality and ugly, after so many years, why it is
> not fixed or replaced?.
> I'm just wondering.

Which toolset should the IDE target? Native Windows? QT? Gnome? Cocoa?
Something else? That will require a widget library. How many widget
libraries should Python ship with? Two? Three? Five? Which ones?
wxPython? PythonCard? Something else? They tend to be very large. Do the
Python developers then become responsible for fixing bugs in the widget
libraries?

Python ships with, at most, a single GUI toolset, tkinter, which targets
the Tcl/Tk toolkit. Consider it the lowest common denominator of modern
GUIs, although I hear that Tk now supports native widgets. But that still
requires work. See here:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/349409/why-are-tk-guis-considered-ugly

But what it really comes down to is time and effort. GUI design is hard,
and unless somebody volunteers to make IDLE look and feel better, it
isn't going to just upgrade itself.


--
Steven
From: Steven D'Aprano on 11 Apr 2010 19:08
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:54:04 -0700, Mensanator wrote:

> On Apr 11, 11:53�am, Steven D'Aprano <st...(a)REMOVE-THIS-
> cybersource.com.au> wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:08:44 -0700, Mensanator wrote:
>> >> > 3.x won't be adopted by developers until it's fixed. As of now,
>> >> > it's seriously broken and unsuitable for production.
>>
>> >> In what ways do you consider it broken?
>>
>> > Issue 8093. Remarkably, this apparently hasn't been noticed before.
>>
>> I think that tells you that it's an unimportant bug that doesn't really
>> effect many people much,
>
> It affects me ... a LOT.

I suspect you're exaggerating, but even if you're not, you are not the
entire Python community. You stated that "3.x won't be adopted by
developers until it's fixed". It sounds like what you really mean was
"3.x won't be adopted by *me* until it's fixed".

3.x is already being adopted by developers. The two biggest factors
slowing uptake of 3.x are: (1) lack of big libraries like numpy, and (2)
that major Linux distros still ship with 2.6 or 2.5.



>> and a million miles from implying that Python 3.x is "seriously broken
>> and unsuitable for production".
>
> Maybe because I'm a user, not a developer.

You write code. You use an Integrated DEVELOPMENT Environment. That makes
you a developer.



>> > I expect 2.7 will be around for a long time.
>>
>> As reported on the bug tracker, this bug effects Python 2.7 as well.
>> It's possible this bug goes back to, what? Python 2.5? 2.4? 2.3? Older?
>> Who knows?
>
> I can't imagine my not having noticed this before. It's plausible I
> might not have noticed the runaway processes, but the fact that I can't
> eject a USB drive would have been very obvious.

Have you tried to reproduce it on 2.6 or 2.5? Unless you actively try to
reproduce it, you can't assume it doesn't occur.



>> http://bugs.python.org/issue8093#msg102818
>>
>> In any case, IDLE is one IDE out of many, and not really up to
>> professional quality -- it's clunky and ugly. It isn't Python, it is a
>> tool written in Python.
>
> You have no idea what the cause is, yet you're certain that the symptom
> is confined to IDLE.

Certain? Of course not. But given an issue that is reported with a single
application, which is more likely? That it is a bug in the language, or a
bug in the application?

Even if it is a bug in the language, some fundamental failure of the
underlying Python virtual machine or built-in objects, there are dozens
of standard library modules, and thousands of third-party modules, that
it doesn't affect.


> That's the kind of thinking that leads to such bugs in the first place.

Riiiight.



--
Steven
From: alex23 on 11 Apr 2010 19:44
Mensanator <mensana...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> Planning to buy a Toyota?

Did we just start playing Questions?
From: Lie Ryan on 12 Apr 2010 00:33
On 04/12/10 04:54, Mensanator wrote:
> On Apr 11, 11:53�am, Steven D'Aprano <st...(a)REMOVE-THIS-
> cybersource.com.au> wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:08:44 -0700, Mensanator wrote:
>>>>> 3.x won't be adopted by developers until it's fixed. As of now, it's
>>>>> seriously broken and unsuitable for production.
>>
>>>> In what ways do you consider it broken?
>>
>>> Issue 8093. Remarkably, this apparently hasn't been noticed before.
>>
>> I think that tells you that it's an unimportant bug that doesn't really
>> effect many people much,
>
> It affects me ... a LOT.
>

One way to fix it, dump tkinter and IDLE.

C/C++ is not broken since they do not ship with an ugly GUI library or
half-assed IDE called IDLE. Why should python ship with them?

On a second thought, let me think about it again.
From: Mensanator on 12 Apr 2010 01:02
On Apr 11, 11:33 pm, Lie Ryan <lie.1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 04/12/10 04:54, Mensanator wrote:
>
> > On Apr 11, 11:53 am, Steven D'Aprano <st...(a)REMOVE-THIS-
> > cybersource.com.au> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:08:44 -0700, Mensanator wrote:
> >>>>> 3.x won't be adopted by developers until it's fixed. As of now, it's
> >>>>> seriously broken and unsuitable for production.
>
> >>>> In what ways do you consider it broken?
>
> >>> Issue 8093. Remarkably, this apparently hasn't been noticed before.
>
> >> I think that tells you that it's an unimportant bug that doesn't really
> >> effect many people much,
>
> > It affects  me ... a LOT.
>
> One way to fix it, dump tkinter and IDLE.

Of course, that doesn't fix the problem, does it?

You think the right thing to do is just quietly work
around the problem and sit back and laugh knowing sooner
or later someone else will get burned by it?

And here I thought I was making a contribution by discovering
something that no one else noticed.

>
> C/C++ is not broken since they do not ship with an ugly GUI library or
> half-assed IDE called IDLE.

Why do you guys think I'm talking about the language? I'm talking
about
a particular implementation.

> Why should python ship with them?
>
> On a second thought, let me think about it again.

Yeah, you certainly don't want to get yelled at by Mr. D'Aprano.

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