Cobol is Dead
in [Cobol]
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From: Alistair on 12 Aug 2010 10:03 On Aug 12, 2:11 pm, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote: > Alistair wrote: > > Despite Pete frequently proclaiming the death of Cobol someone out > > there is in search of a trainer. Unfortunately, for me, it is the > > wrong kind of Cobol: > > >http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/JobDetails.aspx?jobid=48202373 > > Sigh... I have never "proclaimed the death of COBOL". > > In 1996 or thereabouts I predicted that by 2015 COBOL would not be in use as > a major development language. (This was met by general derision and many > quotes that this had been predicted before etc...Nobody actually believed > me. They didn't believe me when I advised people to expand their skill sets, > learn Java, learn OOP. Some of those "unbelievers" are now out of work or > forcibly retired. It's not something I'm glad about being right about.) > > It's happened sooner than I thought. The days of the one stop COBOL shop are > already gone. Even mainframe sites are mixing COBOL with other things and > COBOL is being phased out. A new generation of programmers is coming in and > they want OO. COBOL can do it, but not as well as other languages can and > the result is what we are seeing. > > I have ALWAYS said there would be a place for COBOL in batch programming. > However, I don't personally believe that batch programming has a future > either. The increasing power of processors and parallell processing means > that data warehouses can do everything in real time. If you CAN do it in > real time why wouldn't you? > > It is just the way of the world. Things move on. The procedural paradigm has > largely been replaced by newer tools and approaches. > > I spent 25 years making a living from COBOL when it WAS the "only game in > town". I don't regret a minute of it, but I enjoy my work more today. > > As for the "death of COBOL" I suppose it will happen sometime, just as all > things pass. Does a single ad for a trainer mean that COBOL is alive and > thriving? I don't know. Have you looked on Jobserve recently? > > Beat me up in 2015 if you really think I was wrong. > > Pete. > -- > "I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything." I have looked at Jobserve recently (Tuesday). Point is taken. The reference to proclaiming the death of Cobol is a refer-back to the proclamation of the death of the NSDAP (damn! by mentioning the Nazis I've lost the argument...) The UK Government appears to be a trifle concerned that the take up on ICT courses at schools and universities has declined 33% in recent years. They are looking in to it. I wonder if declining job availability, declining salaries and increasing disrespect for IT workers has anything to do with it? (No response please as it is a rhetorical question. The UK government has a web site where members of the public can make recommendations as to how the UK Govt., can make savings. I suggested that, as they have already outsourced manufacturing and IT to India, they should outsource our politicians to India too. That would save on salaries (43 billion pounds) and huge amounts in unneeded expenses claims.
From: Howard Brazee on 12 Aug 2010 10:37 On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 04:38:41 -0700 (PDT), Alistair <alistair(a)ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote: >Despite Pete frequently proclaiming the death of Cobol someone out >there is in search of a trainer. Unfortunately, for me, it is the >wrong kind of Cobol: > >http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/JobDetails.aspx?jobid=48202373 It's the daily commute which would get to me. -- "In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found, than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace to the legislature, and not to the executive department." - James Madison
From: Howard Brazee on 12 Aug 2010 10:44 On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 01:11:08 +1200, "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote: >In 1996 or thereabouts I predicted that by 2015 COBOL would not be in use as >a major development language. At one time it was *the* major development language. With an absolute majority (not counting JCL as a "development language"). Nowadays there is no majority development language. It's arguable whether there's a majority development environment, now with smart phones competing with Windows. At one time the hammer was a major building development tool. Today, many structures are built without a traditional hammer being used. -- "In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found, than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace to the legislature, and not to the executive department." - James Madison
From: Pete Dashwood on 12 Aug 2010 10:45 HansJ wrote: > On 12 Aug., 15:11, "Pete Dashwood" > <dashw...(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote: >> Alistair wrote: >>> Despite Pete frequently proclaiming the death of Cobol someone out >>> there is in search of a trainer. Unfortunately, for me, it is the >>> wrong kind of Cobol: >> >>> http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/JobDetails.aspx?jobid=48202373 >> >> Sigh... I have never "proclaimed the death of COBOL". >> >> In 1996 or thereabouts I predicted that by 2015 COBOL would not be >> in use as a major development language. (This was met by general >> derision and many quotes that this had been predicted before >> etc...Nobody actually believed me. They didn't believe me when I >> advised people to expand their skill sets, learn Java, learn OOP. >> Some of those "unbelievers" are now out of work or forcibly retired. >> It's not something I'm glad about being right about.) >> >> It's happened sooner than I thought. The days of the one stop COBOL >> shop are already gone. Even mainframe sites are mixing COBOL with >> other things and COBOL is being phased out. A new generation of >> programmers is coming in and they want OO. COBOL can do it, but not >> as well as other languages can and the result is what we are seeing. >> >> I have ALWAYS said there would be a place for COBOL in batch >> programming. However, I don't personally believe that batch >> programming has a future either. The increasing power of processors >> and parallell processing means that data warehouses can do >> everything in real time. If you CAN do it in real time why wouldn't >> you? >> >> It is just the way of the world. Things move on. The procedural >> paradigm has largely been replaced by newer tools and approaches. >> >> I spent 25 years making a living from COBOL when it WAS the "only >> game in town". I don't regret a minute of it, but I enjoy my work >> more today. >> >> As for the "death of COBOL" I suppose it will happen sometime, just >> as all things pass. Does a single ad for a trainer mean that COBOL >> is alive and thriving? I don't know. Have you looked on Jobserve >> recently? >> >> Beat me up in 2015 if you really think I was wrong. >> >> Pete. >> -- >> "I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything." > > Pete, > I can totally agree to your position, though COBOL is not dead, but is > getting there faster as expected. > > We are doing all new developments with Java and COBOL is still used at > a number of sites we do business with (even on NonStop systems). > > Sites running COBOL today are asking about automated COBOL to Java > conversion (which I know works well from a number of sites). There are > good reasons to argue that this might not be a good idea, but there > are reasons to do it. The projects that I know about do not regret > this step at all. > > COBOL is not dead now, but it is getting there... > > Regards Hans -- "I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
From: Bill Klein on 12 Aug 2010 14:40 "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message news:8cia7dFvjdU1(a)mid.individual.net... > Alistair wrote: <snip> > It's happened sooner than I thought. The days of the one stop COBOL shop > are already gone. Even mainframe sites are mixing COBOL with other things > and COBOL is being phased out. A new generation of programmers is coming > in and they want OO. COBOL can do it, but not as well as other languages > can and the result is what we are seeing. > <more snippage> Well, I have only been working in/with IBM mainframe shops since the late 1970's. (I know others in the forum pre-date my experience.) At least in that environment, I don't remember there EVER being "onse-stop COBOL shops". It is true, that it used to be Assmbler and PL/I that were the primary "ogther languages" (and Fortran for heavy numeric processing) and CICS and IMS as the "interface tools" - while now it is (still those, but also) C, C++, Java, Windows, Linux, GUI's, etc that are used WITH COBOL. (and the past experience doesn't even deal with Easytrieve, SAS, Telon, Pacbase, etc) As far as "COBOL is dead", I don't see that much differfence between a Java or Visual Basic (Windows, Linux, whatever) GUI front-end to a COBOL "back-end" system than the "olden days" of CICS or IMS/DC as the front-end. Having said that, I do fully agree that there is MUCH less "new development" done in COBOL (even on IBM mainframes) than there was 10 much less 20 years ago. On the other hand, if you look at the XML and DB2 (for example) enhancements to Enterprise COB OL since 2000 *and* the number of shops using these, I just don't see the same SPEED of the trend that others in this forum do. P.S. of possible relevance and/or interest, there is ongoing thread in the IBM COBOL Cafe on how to use "shared memory/address spac es" in batch COBOL - and how to use the Unix/Posix "shmget" and related API's from batch COBOL. If you read this thread, you will see that I was mistaken (and corrected myself) as I din't think this could be done in (IBM mainframe batch) COBOL - but it can be (and a shope is interested in doing it)
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