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From: Warren on 14 Jun 2010 16:55
zeta_no expounded in news:c4259b0a-3d91-45e8-b88f-
d76c4c0e08ee(a)z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com:

> Stephen Leake wrote:
>
>> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
>> organized?
>
> Python appeared in 1991. It has bindings and projects for almost
> everything. It is used everywhere on open source projects. How much
> you bet Python is much more popular than Ada? How do you think they
> actually achieved that? I know it is not geared toward the same use,
> but the phenomenon is there, to the point that many people try to use
> it on segment of computer programming where it should not belong. You
> can even compile natively nowadays

I think this is a poor argument, as I am sure others will
vocalize. Perl is another "popular" tool, with many add on
modules etc. Both have their uses, but their popularity
hardly makes a "superiority statement". It only means that
they've been well accepted without implying much about their
application. It's like saying MS Windows is the best design
based upon sales.

One aspect of programming that seems to be popular, is that
many programmers seem to prefer to have it compile and be
wrong (if necessary) and then fix the issues as they discover
them. They prefer tiny victories (if they got one) and
iterate to the final solution, through multiple edit +
compiles.

Ada OTOH, points out problems (often related to bad design)
and tends to refuse to compile until "all is correct". By
contrast, a small problem often works the first time after
a successful Ada compile.

So how do you encourage ppl to "get it right" the first
time instead of accepting "early compile victories"?
emacs?

Warren
From: zeta_no on 15 Jun 2010 09:45
On Jun 14, 4:55 pm, Warren <ve3...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> zeta_no expounded in news:c4259b0a-3d91-45e8-b88f-
> d76c4c0e0...(a)z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Stephen Leake wrote:
>
> >> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
> >> organized?
>
> > Python appeared in 1991.  It has bindings and projects for almost
> > everything.  It is used everywhere on open source projects.  How much (...)

> Both have their uses, but their popularity
> hardly makes a "superiority statement".  It only means that
> they've been well accepted without implying much about their
> application.  It's like saying MS Windows is the best design
> based upon sales.

Never said Python is superior to Ada, the question was: What other
open source language community is better organized?
Python, managed to attract armies of dev., new and old. What happened
with Ada during those years?

.... they closed university class on Ada. (Ecole Polytechnique de
Montreal, in Canada: INF6300, dead)

I heard about one other school here in Canada that did the same...

Olivier
From: Georg Bauhaus on 15 Jun 2010 11:15
On 15.06.10 15:45, zeta_no wrote:
> On Jun 14, 4:55 pm, Warren <ve3...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> zeta_no expounded in news:c4259b0a-3d91-45e8-b88f-
>> d76c4c0e0...(a)z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Stephen Leake wrote:
>>
>>>> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
>>>> organized?
>>
>>> Python appeared in 1991. It has bindings and projects for almost
>>> everything. It is used everywhere on open source projects. How much (...)
>
>> Both have their uses, but their popularity
>> hardly makes a "superiority statement". It only means that
>> they've been well accepted without implying much about their
>> application. It's like saying MS Windows is the best design
>> based upon sales.
>
> Never said Python is superior to Ada, the question was: What other
> open source language community is better organized?
> Python, managed to attract armies of dev., new and old. What happened
> with Ada during those years?
>
> ... they closed university class on Ada. (Ecole Polytechnique de
> Montreal, in Canada: INF6300, dead)

Superficial observation tells that one generation of
teachers leaves schools, another is coming. Do they
have a choice when selecting a shiny reputable language?

Ada's early history may have been a debacle, both socially
and economically. For proof see the 2nd � of

http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/frames.asp?uri=1996/03/AnAdaFor.asp

If teachers' opinions have been shaped during that time, then
possibly they have not changed much, later. Whatever arguments
against Ada have been invalidated by events, as a teacher wanting
to choose Ada you'd have to stand up against previous choices,
in particular against choices of influential colleagues still in
town...

However, there is the GNAT Academic Program, and the list
of participating universities is reportedly growing,
http://www.adacore.com/home/academia/members/

So if attracting teachers and students is a sign of community
organization, this should should be one data point.
From: Niklas Holsti on 15 Jun 2010 13:05
zeta_no wrote:
> On Jun 14, 4:55 pm, Warren <ve3...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> zeta_no expounded in news:c4259b0a-3d91-45e8-b88f-
>> d76c4c0e0...(a)z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Stephen Leake wrote:
>>>> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
>>>> organized?
>>> Python appeared in 1991. It has bindings and projects for almost
>>> everything. It is used everywhere on open source projects. How much (...)
>
>> Both have their uses, but their popularity
>> hardly makes a "superiority statement". It only means that
>> they've been well accepted without implying much about their
>> application. It's like saying MS Windows is the best design
>> based upon sales.
>
> Never said Python is superior to Ada, the question was: What other
> open source language community is better organized?
> Python, managed to attract armies of dev., new and old. What happened
> with Ada during those years?
>
> ... they closed university class on Ada. (Ecole Polytechnique de
> Montreal, in Canada: INF6300, dead)
>
> I heard about one other school here in Canada that did the same...

Some of them return to Ada. On c.l.a. on or around Oct 12, 2008, John
McCormick wrote (in part):

> When Java first burst upon the educational scene, my Department voted
> to replace our successful Ada based course with a Java one. [snip]
> After 5 years, the faculty teaching the upper level courses staged
> a revolt. Their students' ability to write code (mostly in C) for
> their projects had fallen tremendously from the days when we used
> Ada in the beginning courses. We switched back to Ada!

But John also wrote that the school was next starting to experiment with
Python. It would be interesting to hear how that turned out, compared to
Ada and Java.

--
Niklas Holsti
Tidorum Ltd
niklas holsti tidorum fi
. @ .
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