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From: Mr. Arnold on 15 Jul 2010 15:44
On 7/14/2010 4:10 AM, ib.dangelmeyr(a)googlemail.com wrote:
>> Maintaining a website for the forums also costs more and is less scalable.
>> Maybe they had a good reason for doing this, but I wouldn't be able to guess
>> what it was.
>
> But in Web forums Microsoft can make additional advertisement, etc.
> Who cares about the users ...

You do know that all MS NG access is on borrowed time, right? This NG
access will be gone too in short order.


From: Registered User on 15 Jul 2010 17:35
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:17:17 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <MR.
Arnold(a)Arnold.com> wrote:

>
>Just use the MS NNTP Bridge application, which will allow on to use your NG
>reader and go to the VB and C# forums.

I was unaware of such an animal. Thank you for the heads up.

regards
A.G.
From: "Mr. Arnold" MR. on 16 Jul 2010 06:28

"Registered User" <n4jvp(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:rnvu36t0r5ua6gofmb77em6r948fj54n1m(a)4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:17:17 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <MR.
> Arnold(a)Arnold.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Just use the MS NNTP Bridge application, which will allow on to use your
>>NG
>>reader and go to the VB and C# forums.
>
> I was unaware of such an animal. Thank you for the heads up.
>

There are some issues with the bridge using Thunderbird, but Windows Mail
doesn't seem to have the issues of getting some other poster's subject
matter on a reply post and applying it to your nym supplanting what you
posted, when it really didn't happen when using another NG reader and
looking.

TB also seems to have a problem of posting to a thread that was not the
target thread when using the bridge.

From: PJ6 on 26 Jul 2010 10:16
"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold(a)Arnold.com> wrote in message
news:upAX4JFJLHA.5720(a)TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> So?
> Compared to real applications -- please?
> I work in both environments, and what the desktop flyboy jockeys need to
> learn is n-tier, object oriented programming, design patterns, TDD and
> DDD in enterprise level development, which can be used at the desktop
> just as they are being used in Web based solution. The desktop flyboy
> jockeys are no where in the ballpark.

Are you serious?

When I came out of thick client development I was shocked at the lack of
skills the people that called themselves web application "developers" had.
All they knew was markup, and they spoke of "the code behind" and "scripts"
with shades of fear. None of them had any inkling at all about what
object-oriented programming is. I've been all over the industry for well
over a decade and I can say that while there's been change, web developers
as a whole (not you) remain the sorriest lot of them all. You may personally
work with good people, but really - you can't be serious when you say web
developers generally have a clue. I have reworked so many *devastatingly*
bad designs wrought by web "developers", designs that would make you cry. No
thick client I have seen has come *close* to the horror, the abject
failures, I've seen these people create.

And web UI development in general... things that are trivial, take seconds
to do in a thick client, things that just work the first time, can take
forever to do for a web interface, or are simply impossible. The very idea
of using markup and script for an application's UI - where you actually use
it to WORK - is flawed at its very core and I can point out in a thousand
examples by comparison as to why this is true. Square peg, round hole.

Paul


From: Mr. Arnold on 26 Jul 2010 11:33
On 7/26/2010 10:16 AM, PJ6 wrote:
> "Mr. Arnold"<MR. Arnold(a)Arnold.com> wrote in message
> news:upAX4JFJLHA.5720(a)TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> So?
>> Compared to real applications -- please?
>> I work in both environments, and what the desktop flyboy jockeys need to
>> learn is n-tier, object oriented programming, design patterns, TDD and
>> DDD in enterprise level development, which can be used at the desktop
>> just as they are being used in Web based solution. The desktop flyboy
>> jockeys are no where in the ballpark.
>
> Are you serious?
>
> When I came out of thick client development I was shocked at the lack of
> skills the people that called themselves web application "developers" had.

And how many years ago was that? Those days are long gone as .Net
Architects for Web applications are starting to use the various .NET
technologies and they are coming into play more and more.

> All they knew was markup, and they spoke of "the code behind" and "scripts"
> with shades of fear.

Not anymore and particularly so with the usage of WPF, Silverlight and
WCF RIA.

> None of them had any inkling at all about what
> object-oriented programming is. I've been all over the industry for well
> over a decade and I can say that while there's been change, web developers
> as a whole (not you) remain the sorriest lot of them all.

So, when they have this kind of learning material available and they
know what they are doing after they use the material, because they can
see it in action and see the source code on how it's done, then what?

http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/Patterns.aspx
http://www.lhotka.net/cslanet/

And I have been on the MS platform since 1996 or so and I have seen
sorry Windows forms developers to this day -- don't kid yourself now
about the expertise level of a Windows forms developer over and Windows
Web developer in today's, because I know better.

> You may personally
> work with good people, but really - you can't be serious when you say web
> developers generally have a clue.

I am dead serious about what is happening in today's environment. The
days you're talking about are disappearing fast.

I have reworked so many *devastatingly*
> bad designs wrought by web "developers", designs that would make you cry.

I have done the same thing on Windows forms applications, and prior to
that, on the mainframe platform too back in the 80's and early part of
the 90's, which was looked at code that was badly written and horror.

> No
> thick client I have seen has come *close* to the horror, the abject
> failures, I've seen these people create.

Bad programming and application design is not limited to any development
environment. And I have seen some nightmares on the Windows desktop for
applications.
>
> And web UI development in general... things that are trivial, take seconds
> to do in a thick client, things that just work the first time, can take
> forever to do for a web interface, or are simply impossible.

I and a whole lot of others are not experiencing those issues.

About the only thing a Web UI can't do well is keep state, but that's
changing too with the HTML5, and there are other way to keep state as well.

> The very idea
> of using markup and script for an application's UI - where you actually use
> it to WORK - is flawed at its very core and I can point out in a thousand
> examples by comparison as to why this is true. Square peg, round hole.

It's not going away, and the Web application's footprint is minuscule,
as compared to a Windows forms based solution (thin client or not) where
lots of things can go wrong and the attack vector is great. I have been
there and done that.

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