Open Office problem/ Help-seekers
in [Open Office]
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From: "Bruce Martin" on 19 Feb 2010 15:43 Dear Everybody: (No presumption of privacy here!) Recently I have seen a number of exchanged messages about people who post here for help with specific applications within Oo. I have a few questions about what seems to have transpired: 1) Did somebody complain about lack or privacy in regard to a post? Do many contributors have the expectation or presumption of a measure of privacy that simply does not exist? 2) Is there a problem with people who post specific questions here, looking for help (possibly in that others have the feeling that many of these questions fill the space without contributing much of value to the development and marketing of Oo?) 3) Is this possible expectation/concern a real need to the group to separate this type of request? 4) Is there a better area for such posters to ask free help-related questions and have a reasonably credible expectation of getting the help they need? 5) If item 4 exists, could we not post something like a sticky note to catch the attention of the help seekers and redirect them? If so, how strongly do we need to word the redirection to be effective, yet not appear angry or condescending? I hope this comes over as a somewhat diplomatic approach to the situation, but I may be short on some degree of close familiarity with the interpersonal dynamics existing. Best Regards, Bruce Martin -----Original Message----- From: Robert Holtzman [mailto:holtzm(a)cox.net] Sent: February 19, 2010 1:45 PM To: discuss(a)openoffice.org Subject: Re: [discuss] Open Office problem On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 02:35:16PM +1100, Peter Hyde wrote: > > > > Obviously they did not know they were posting to a public mailing > > list. So your comments below will help them appreciate where they have > posted. > > > > But sadly as I see many times reading comments in response to fair and > > reasonable questions, you appear to have failed to help them with > > their actual problem, but rather humiliated and embarrassed them. > > I was pointing out a fallacy in their assumption of privacy, not addressing > their specific problem. > > This is part of the problem. Why respond simply to avoid providing any > assistance whatsoever, with an unhelpful sarcastic response. What was your > real motive in doing so? My *real* motive in posting was to point out an error in their assumption of privacy....as I said in my post. You must have missed it. > > Why do you assume they are embarrassed by having a mistake pointed out to > them? I'm not acquainted with many people with sensibilities that fragile. > > You need to broaden your horizons, and move beyond the limited pool of > friends you currently have. I have a sufficient number with enough diversity to let me make a valid observation. > Also try to live by the best motto of all. Treat > others as you yourself would wish to be treated. I do....and did! > > -- > Bob Holtzman > Key ID: 8D549279 > "If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer" > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 "If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer"
From: Robert Holtzman on 19 Feb 2010 17:14 On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 03:43:09PM -0500, Bruce Martin wrote: > Dear Everybody: > > (No presumption of privacy here!) Me either ;) > > Recently I have seen a number of exchanged messages about people who post > here for help with specific applications within Oo. > > I have a few questions about what seems to have transpired: > > 1) Did somebody complain about lack or privacy in regard to a post? Do > many contributors have the expectation or presumption of a measure of > privacy that simply does not exist? A previous poster asked to be replied to off list as they were concerned about their privacy. I posted pointing out that this is a public list read and archived worldwide. > > 2) Is there a problem with people who post specific questions here, > looking for help (possibly in that others have the feeling that many of > these questions fill the space without contributing much of value to the > development and marketing of Oo?) Mostly there is no problem except for a few people who claim to see one. > > 3) Is this possible expectation/concern a real need to the group to > separate this type of request? *I* don't see the need. > > 4) Is there a better area for such posters to ask free help-related > questions and have a reasonably credible expectation of getting the help > they need? Nothing wrong with this place. > > 5) If item 4 exists, could we not post something like a sticky note to > catch the attention of the help seekers and redirect them? If so, how > strongly do we need to word the redirection to be effective, yet not appear > angry or condescending? See answer to #4. > > I hope this comes over as a somewhat diplomatic approach to the situation, > but I may be short on some degree of close familiarity with the > interpersonal dynamics existing. I don't see any real *situation* here and I'm unaware of any interpersonal dynamic. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 "If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer"
From: Larry Gusaas on 19 Feb 2010 17:54 On 2010/02/19 4:14 PM Robert Holtzman wrote: >> 1) Did somebody complain about lack or privacy in regard to a post? Do >> > many contributors have the expectation or presumption of a measure of >> > privacy that simply does not exist? >> > A previous poster asked to be replied to off list as they were concerned > about their privacy. I posted pointing out that this is a public list > read and archived worldwide. > This points out the real problem - allowing posts from people who are not subscribed to the mailing lists. The OP is not subscribed to this list and probably was not aware they were posting to a mailing list. -- Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org
From: "Peter Hyde" on 19 Feb 2010 20:00 Hi Bruce, Thanks for such a well worded, reasonable and helpful post. As a happy OpenOffice.org user for many years, I have passed on the program via CD to literally hundreds of now happy users, and have subscribed to this list/forum for many years now. One of the problems I see at times which saddens me, is the lack of any real help at times, (I say at times, because quite often real help is given and a solution is thus there for all to benefit from) given to new users, or users with real problems. At times some will post a questions which is relatively basic and many current users fully grasp how to solve such a problem, but instead of any help given, exception is taken with a misworded question or a question which may be technically incorrect, but the actual meaning is perfectly clear, and some will amuse themselves by picking on the misworded section or technical mistake, rather than help. This would no doubt be rather frustrating to the person who is seeking some assistance, and would cause many to stop using this wonderful program. It is sort of like a person who visits Australia from the USA, they suffer an injury which greatly concerns them, so they dial 911 for help. Thankfully Telstra divert the call to the 000 system, and an Ambulance is dispatched. But on arrival the Ambulance crew correctly point out to the person that they are in Australia now, and that to get help in Australia you need to dial 000, and they then drive of without actually providing the assistance that moved the person to dial 911 in the first place. This would naturally be unacceptable, and if any of us were in the position we would not be happy. So if a person was to post a reasonable and real question for which they would appreciate some help in this list, then this would be a good opportunity to give such help. In so doing there would be no problem in alerting a user who did not know that this was a public forum that it is, and advice them what to do if they wanted to preserve their privacy, such as giving them the links to un-subscribe etc, just as it would not be a problem for the Ambulance crew to let the person know that they should dial 000 in the future. But it is not appropriate to just mock them and not provide a real answer or give any real help. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Martin [mailto:brucemartin10(a)gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, 20 February 2010 7:43 AM To: discuss(a)openoffice.org Subject: RE: [discuss] Open Office problem/ Help-seekers Dear Everybody: (No presumption of privacy here!) Recently I have seen a number of exchanged messages about people who post here for help with specific applications within Oo. I have a few questions about what seems to have transpired: 1) Did somebody complain about lack or privacy in regard to a post? Do many contributors have the expectation or presumption of a measure of privacy that simply does not exist? Some do not know that this is a public forum and so may well be concerned about their privacy, the kind thing to do would be while addressing their problem to let them know that it is, and give them a link to un-scribe if they so wish. 2) Is there a problem with people who post specific questions here, looking for help (possibly in that others have the feeling that many of these questions fill the space without contributing much of value to the development and marketing of Oo?) More than likely. Some may at times become frustrated with apparently simple, or even un-resolvable questions. But every user is at a different level, and to give the person who has asked a question their dignity, we can if we wish address their issue in a helpful manner, or if we wish to degrade them, we can do that as well. But in my humble opinion I don't think this actually helps anyone but the person scratching his ego. 3) Is this possible expectation/concern a real need to the group to separate this type of request? Perhaps, or perhaps we could simply answer the question to the best of our ability, and let them know where they can go for further assistance to protect their privacy if they so wish, or again un-scribe if they so wish. 4) Is there a better area for such posters to ask free help-related questions and have a reasonably credible expectation of getting the help they need? This is an excellent way where a new user, or one with a problem can get answers to their problems, that is if they actually get an answer, not simply treated as a simpleton. 5) If item 4 exists, could we not post something like a sticky note to catch the attention of the help seekers and redirect them? If so, how strongly do we need to word the redirection to be effective, yet not appear angry or condescending? It may well help to make it clear which forum is for development, which one is for help and assistance etc. However even if that was made clearer many lost souls will still post in the wrong forums. But again if that was to be the case, while kindly informing them of their mistake, like a good Ambulance crew we can actually provide the assistance they require while we are communicating with them. I hope this comes over as a somewhat diplomatic approach to the situation, but I may be short on some degree of close familiarity with the interpersonal dynamics existing. I doubt it. There is none so blind as those who will not see. Best Regards, Bruce Martin -----Original Message----- From: Robert Holtzman [mailto:holtzm(a)cox.net] Sent: February 19, 2010 1:45 PM To: discuss(a)openoffice.org Subject: Re: [discuss] Open Office problem On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 02:35:16PM +1100, Peter Hyde wrote: > > > > Obviously they did not know they were posting to a public mailing > > list. So your comments below will help them appreciate where they > > have > posted. > > > > But sadly as I see many times reading comments in response to fair > > and reasonable questions, you appear to have failed to help them > > with their actual problem, but rather humiliated and embarrassed them. > > I was pointing out a fallacy in their assumption of privacy, not addressing > their specific problem. > > This is part of the problem. Why respond simply to avoid providing any > assistance whatsoever, with an unhelpful sarcastic response. What was > your real motive in doing so? My *real* motive in posting was to point out an error in their assumption of privacy....as I said in my post. You must have missed it. > > Why do you assume they are embarrassed by having a mistake pointed out > to them? I'm not acquainted with many people with sensibilities that fragile. > > You need to broaden your horizons, and move beyond the limited pool of > friends you currently have. I have a sufficient number with enough diversity to let me make a valid observation. > Also try to live by the best motto of all. Treat others as you > yourself would wish to be treated. I do....and did! > > -- > Bob Holtzman > Key ID: 8D549279 > "If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer" > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 "If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org
From: Michael Adams on 20 Feb 2010 12:58 On Saturday 20 February 2010 11:54, Larry Gusaas wrote: > On 2010/02/19 4:14 PM Robert Holtzman wrote: > >> 1) Did somebody complain about lack or privacy in regard to a post? Do > >> > >> > many contributors have the expectation or presumption of a measure of > >> > privacy that simply does not exist? > > > > A previous poster asked to be replied to off list as they were concerned > > about their privacy. I posted pointing out that this is a public list > > read and archived worldwide. > > This points out the real problem - allowing posts from people who are > not subscribed to the mailing lists. The OP is not subscribed to this > list and probably was not aware they were posting to a mailing list. How did they get that assumption? All OO.o website links to this list clearly mark it so. Perhaps they were directed to the list by a third party. Somewhere they got misinformation because this is not meant to be the help list. -- Michael --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org
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