From: Gus Richter on
On 1/15/2010 6:05 PM, dorayme wrote:
> In article<hiqqb3$g5g$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
> Gus Richter<gusrichter(a)netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>> ...
>>>> Since in my opinion, nobody should use text-only zoom, I therefore do
>>>> not use it and had put it out of my mind.
>>>
>>> I think it is all the more reason to use it when making pages (as
>>> opposed to merely using them) and all the more reason not to put it out
>>> of mind.
>>
>> You have twisted and turned a simple thing into a deep thinking
>> exercise.
>
> I have? You are doing all the twisting and talking, not me. It is bad
> practice to not cater for those who use text-only zoom. This is not deep
> thinking! It is the simple truth.

The simple thing was an alternative method, which worked. You then take
four twists and turns.
1. You stated that the method did not work in any browser.
2. You then modified your response by introducing the fact that it broke
when changing text size.
3. Then you mentioned that people with certain browser settings make the
vertical-align method unreliable.
4. You then state your concern regarding image degradation when using
Page Zoom.

I thought I saw through the foggy area of our problem and tried to
address it by getting into a rambling discourse in an obviously
unsuccessful attempt to explain how I see Text Zoom and Page Zoom and
ways that each breaks web pages with example pages of each. I then also
mentioned Elastic and Liquid Layout which should be the goal. My
intention was to point out that applying fluid/liquid layout and/or
elastic layout principles would correct those page breakages that I
pointed out. I suggested that these layouts can be checked for breakage
with Page Zoom.
Now this last comment of yours which shows me that I've completely
failed to bring my thoughts across.
The fact that Opera, IE and Chrome do not have Text Zoom, that Chrome
used to have Text Zoom but removed that capability and that all have
Page Zoom, does not move you.
Neither does it move you that only Safari and Firefox have Text Zoom
capability and that Text Zoom breaks the web page from the way it was
intended to look by changing the text size only and leaving the image
size as it was.
Since Text Zoom breaks the page, why do you believe that the breakage on
the vertical-align method by Text Zoom to be an unexpected behavior?

You say that I've done all the talking, well that's probably because
your statements have been very short and lacking in information, whereas
I've been trying to explain fully my viewpoint.

Text Zoom changes text size only and NOT image size, whereas Page Zoom
ALSO changes text size, but it ALSO changes image size at the same time.
I've said that I'm in favor of Page Zoom and by promoting its use in
testing for breakage by developers. You say that it's bad practice to
not cater to Text Zoom users. Well I say to cater to any user that uses
text size change whether by using Text Zoom, Page Zoom or by any other
means to change the text size used to rendered on his/her browser. THIS
is the simple truth as I see it. Apparently this then is the deep
thinking part and not the expanded ramblings I had referred to.

--
Gus

From: Gus Richter on
On 1/15/2010 10:49 PM, jeff wrote:
> rf wrote:
>> Gus Richter wrote:
>>> On 1/15/2010 6:05 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>> On 2010-01-15, Gus Richter wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Let me say this in ending: I believe that it may be useful to have
>>>>> both "Text Zoom" and "Page Zoom" at hand, although I probably have
>>>>> no use for "Text Zoom" personally.
>>>> Then how do you test for viewers whose font size is not the same
>>>> as yours? That can best be emulated with text zoom, not page
>>>> zoom.
>>> Explain to me why you believe Text Zoom to be better at it than Page
>>> Zoom.
>>
>> Doesn't stuff up the images.
>>
>> Doens't result in a permanent horizontal scroll bar (IE at least).
>
> I didn't realize my thread was still alive!
>
> Dorayme is right that the image shifts down as the font size is
> increased. I never would have thought to check that and I find it odd
> that it does (FF3 at least).

It happens in all browsers that support Text Zoom.
As I tried to explain to dorayme, it's a defect/fault of this Text Zoom
feature - it breaks a page by rendering it differently as intended by
the author by not changing the image size along with the text size.
That's why I think that Text Zoom is not a good idea. This is probably
why Chrome removed Text Zoom and replaced it with Page Zoom and why
Opera and IE also don't have Text Zoom. If text size only is desired
without the image 'interfering', then the best choice is to use Opera
which has the optional feature to totally NOT show images.

> Myself, I always check to see if text zoom only breaks the page, I've
> never though of checking in Page Zoom, after all it is just a magnifier
> and I agree that horizontal scrollbars are terrible creations.

As far as my understanding goes, Page Zoom is not a magnifier at all,
but changes the text size the same as Text Zoom, but ALSO changes the
image size. Show me a page where Page Zoom cannot be used to check for
page breakage, but Text Zoom can.

Regarding the horizontal scrollbar, take dorayme's submission:
<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/imgCentreProposal.html>
where using Page Zoom creates a the horizontal scrollbar. Simply adding
(for example) max-width:100%; to #container will prevent the
scrollbar and limit the container to the viewport.

--
Gus

From: Chris F.A. Johnson on
On 2010-01-16, Gus Richter wrote:
> On 1/15/2010 10:49 PM, jeff wrote:
>> rf wrote:
>>> Gus Richter wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/2010 6:05 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>>> On 2010-01-15, Gus Richter wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Let me say this in ending: I believe that it may be useful to have
>>>>>> both "Text Zoom" and "Page Zoom" at hand, although I probably have
>>>>>> no use for "Text Zoom" personally.
>>>>> Then how do you test for viewers whose font size is not the same
>>>>> as yours? That can best be emulated with text zoom, not page
>>>>> zoom.
>>>> Explain to me why you believe Text Zoom to be better at it than Page
>>>> Zoom.
>>>
>>> Doesn't stuff up the images.
>>>
>>> Doens't result in a permanent horizontal scroll bar (IE at least).
>>
>> I didn't realize my thread was still alive!
>>
>> Dorayme is right that the image shifts down as the font size is
>> increased. I never would have thought to check that and I find it odd
>> that it does (FF3 at least).
>
> It happens in all browsers that support Text Zoom.
> As I tried to explain to dorayme, it's a defect/fault of this Text Zoom
> feature - it breaks a page by rendering it differently as intended by
> the author by not changing the image size along with the text size.

Text zoom does not render any of my pages differently from what I
intended. I don't design a web page as a piece of paper; it isn't.

> That's why I think that Text Zoom is not a good idea.

Are you saying that your viewers should not use the default text
size they prefer?

> This is probably
> why Chrome removed Text Zoom and replaced it with Page Zoom and why
> Opera and IE also don't have Text Zoom. If text size only is desired
> without the image 'interfering', then the best choice is to use Opera
> which has the optional feature to totally NOT show images.

Opera does do text zoom (I just tried it).

>> Myself, I always check to see if text zoom only breaks the page, I've
>> never though of checking in Page Zoom, after all it is just a magnifier
>> and I agree that horizontal scrollbars are terrible creations.
>
> As far as my understanding goes, Page Zoom is not a magnifier at all,
> but changes the text size the same as Text Zoom, but ALSO changes the
> image size. Show me a page where Page Zoom cannot be used to check for
> page breakage, but Text Zoom can.

Any page at all. When a user has a different default font size,
the images don't change their size, only the text changes.

> Regarding the horizontal scrollbar, take dorayme's submission:
><http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/imgCentreProposal.html>
> where using Page Zoom creates a the horizontal scrollbar. Simply adding
> (for example) max-width:100%; to #container will prevent the
> scrollbar and limit the container to the viewport.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfajohnson.com>
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
From: Osmo Saarikumpu on
Gus Richter kirjoitti:

> As I tried to explain to dorayme, it's a defect/fault of this Text Zoom
> feature - it breaks a page by rendering it differently as intended by
> the author by not changing the image size along with the text size.

You've got this upside down. Text Zoom doesn't break a page, it's the
other way around, that is, the author is not distinguishing clearly
betwixt DTP and Web publishing.

> That's why I think that Text Zoom is not a good idea.

It's the only one I use, in a browser that is. I can't recall a single
real use case where I'd changed to page zoom view.

> If text size only is desired
> without the image 'interfering', then the best choice is to use Opera
> which has the optional feature to totally NOT show images.

IIRC, every browser I've ever used has provided the option to disable
images. That's how my IE6 is set :)
--
Best wishes,
Osmo

From: Gus Richter on
On 1/16/2010 1:13 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> On 2010-01-16, Gus Richter wrote:
>> On 1/15/2010 10:49 PM, jeff wrote:
>>> rf wrote:
>>>> Gus Richter wrote:
>>>>> On 1/15/2010 6:05 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> On 2010-01-15, Gus Richter wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Let me say this in ending: I believe that it may be useful to have
>>>>>>> both "Text Zoom" and "Page Zoom" at hand, although I probably have
>>>>>>> no use for "Text Zoom" personally.
>>>>>> Then how do you test for viewers whose font size is not the same
>>>>>> as yours? That can best be emulated with text zoom, not page
>>>>>> zoom.
>>>>> Explain to me why you believe Text Zoom to be better at it than Page
>>>>> Zoom.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't stuff up the images.
>>>>
>>>> Doens't result in a permanent horizontal scroll bar (IE at least).
>>>
>>> I didn't realize my thread was still alive!
>>>
>>> Dorayme is right that the image shifts down as the font size is
>>> increased. I never would have thought to check that and I find it odd
>>> that it does (FF3 at least).
>>
>> It happens in all browsers that support Text Zoom.
>> As I tried to explain to dorayme, it's a defect/fault of this Text Zoom
>> feature - it breaks a page by rendering it differently as intended by
>> the author by not changing the image size along with the text size.
>
> Text zoom does not render any of my pages differently from what I
> intended. I don't design a web page as a piece of paper; it isn't.

Please don't throw variations of a clich´┐Ż at me. Since I fail in making
myself clear, or what I say means nothing, here is a link that may
accomplish wherein I fail:
<http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2008/10/07/zoom/>

>> That's why I think that Text Zoom is not a good idea.
>
> Are you saying that your viewers should not use the default text
> size they prefer?

No.

>> This is probably
>> why Chrome removed Text Zoom and replaced it with Page Zoom and why
>> Opera and IE also don't have Text Zoom. If text size only is desired
>> without the image 'interfering', then the best choice is to use Opera
>> which has the optional feature to totally NOT show images.
>
> Opera does do text zoom (I just tried it).

What the ....? Can you give more? Don't play a dorayme on me. In Opera:
View/Zoom only gives Page Zoom options (Opera's only & default)
I just tried it and tried it before as well!!!
If it changes image size along with text size, it's Page Zoom, which it
does and is. There is no option for Text Zoom that I can see. Tell me
how you achieved Text Zoom in your Opera.

>>> Myself, I always check to see if text zoom only breaks the page, I've
>>> never though of checking in Page Zoom, after all it is just a magnifier
>>> and I agree that horizontal scrollbars are terrible creations.
>>
>> As far as my understanding goes, Page Zoom is not a magnifier at all,
>> but changes the text size the same as Text Zoom, but ALSO changes the
>> image size. Show me a page where Page Zoom cannot be used to check for
>> page breakage, but Text Zoom can.
>
> Any page at all. When a user has a different default font size,
> the images don't change their size, only the text changes.

I'm sorry, but this is not an answer to my question.
BTW, "any page" is not so in response to my question and the rest simply
states the behavior of Text Zoom.

>> Regarding the horizontal scrollbar, take dorayme's submission:
>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/imgCentreProposal.html>
>> where using Page Zoom creates a the horizontal scrollbar. Simply adding
>> (for example) max-width:100%; to #container will prevent the
>> scrollbar and limit the container to the viewport.

No comment on this? I guess it didn't impress you at all?

--
Gus