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From: lkcl on 29 Apr 2010 09:04
On Apr 29, 6:37 am, Wolfgang Strobl <ne...(a)mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Look at it from the point of view of people walking by, trying to decide
> whether they should invest some of their time into digging into yet
> another framework and library.

yes. _their_ time - not mine. the pyjamas project has always been
done on the basis that skilled software developers such as myself and
others ... how-to-say... "invite" other people to benefit from the
fact that they want to have tools which make _their_ lives easier.

as we receive absolutely no money of any kind from any sponsor or
other free software organisation nor from any corporation, there _is_
no money to spend on doing the "usual" kind of free software project,
where the developers are paid / funded to deal with issues effectively
"for free".

so instead i encourage and invite people to contribute, and some do,
and some don't: the end-result is the product of everyone's collective
input.

>
>
> >> and that there is no way of
> >> telling, other than by trying each one out in turn?
>
> > yepp  that's correct.  across multiple browsers and across multiple
> >desktop platforms.  nine in total.  which is why i asked for community
> >input this time.
>
> It's hard to come by with valuable input when the baseline - what is
> expected to work under which circumstances is unknown. Don't expect the
> community having as much knowledge about all the relevant topics as you
> have.

at least _some_ input would be good! the knowledge doesn't have to
be there: just the bugreports saying "there's a problem and here's
exactly how you reproduce it" would be a start!

> So please make it simpler for more people to help.

... how?? there's a bugtracker, wiki, svn repository, over 30
examples and a developer list. the code really _is_ very very small
(the UI widget set, with around 75 widgets, minus the license header
text is only around 4,000 lines _total_, making it very very simple
and very very easy for people to get used to). suggestions welcome!

> Other people have
> other projects, where they invest some of their own time and money in.

yes. been there. didn't receive any return on investment. did some
projects. received about 25% of required money to pay bills. need
£15k pa; receiving approximately £7-8k.

> >>  I didn't look at
> >> every example again, but AFAIK, this didn't change with 0.7. (Tried with
> >> Python 2.6.4/5 on WinXP/7 with Firefox and Chrome, if that matters).
>
> > then please issue bugreports for as many as you feel comfortable
> >with / have time for.  
>
> Ok, will do.

thanks. i fixed the lightout one, don't worry about that.

> > no, because they're all intended to work.  ohh... wait... are you
> >referring to some of the django-based ones?  
>
> No. Having written a few small django apps myself, I'm certainly aware
> about such dependencies. But are you aware that's there is no simple way
> to tell whether certain apps have environment dependencies like this?
> Avoiding examples depending on django is obvious.  What about the
> infohierarchy sample, for example?

that's reading text files using HTTPRequest (just like the Bookreader
and Slideshow examples), so there's no dependency like that.

each of the examples, if it has dependencies such as django, it's
assumed that you know how to install and configure django, and there's
instructions in the README to set things up.

> I'm talking about messages like
> lightout TypeError: lightout.RootPanel().,get is no function
> and such.

hooray! thank you! a bugreport! ok, that was a one line fix:

@@ -85,6 +85,6 @@ class Game(SimplePanel):
if __name__ == '__main__':
pyjd.setup("public/lightout.html")
game = Game(3)
- RootPanel().get('game').add(game)
+ RootPanel('game').add(game)

so, don't worry about that one, it's done. small change to the API
(to support something that someone else needed) had knock-on effects.

> I'll make a list over the weekend.

thank you. greatly appreciated.

> >> Given my original motivation for looking into it - may I ask whether
> >> there is a working example for a dnd operation, somewhere?
> > the person who started the port of gwt-dnd requested that they be
> >"left alone" to complete it, but then didn't.  the use of java2py.py
> >and manual conversion i can do about 1000 lines per day, and people
> >i've guided before usually take about 3x longer than me.  i don't have
> >money to work on even 1 line let alone 1000, so if you'd like to go
> >through the code, converting it and the examples, i'm happy to advise
> >(on thepyjamas-dev list so that other people can contribute as well
> >if they choose).
>
> Hey, I'm just asking, after looking around for a while and finding none,
> I'm not demanding anything.

no problem, i understood that you weren't - i was just making it
clear that i know what's involved.

> Thanks for the detailed explaination of how to do a conversion, which
> I've deleted here for brevity. I'll give it a try, but it will require
> some reading.

be happy to help - on the pyjamas-dev list. conversion has been
discussed numerous times, there. i refer people to java2py each time,
so you could search the archives on that.

thank you wolfgang.

l.
From: Wolfgang Strobl on 2 May 2010 03:16
lkcl <luke.leighton(a)googlemail.com>:

> at least _some_ input would be good! the knowledge doesn't have to
>be there: just the bugreports saying "there's a problem and here's
>exactly how you reproduce it" would be a start!

>> So please make it simpler for more people to help.

> ... how?? there's a bugtracker, wiki, svn repository, over 30
>examples and a developer list. the code really _is_ very very small
>(the UI widget set, with around 75 widgets, minus the license header
>text is only around 4,000 lines _total_, making it very very simple
>and very very easy for people to get used to). suggestions welcome!

Well, the bunch of programming languages and APIs I collected over the
years is large enough already. These days I prefer to stay with python
and c, spiced with an occasional domain specific language. That's why I
was attracted by pyjamas, to begin with!. If I'd like to program using
Eclipse and Java or fool around with JavaScript, I'd do just that. But I
don't. IMHO, that ist a general problem of translation tools - they
attract the wrong people, from the point of view a developer who looks
for people sharing some of the workload. :-)

So, Luke, I can only answer your question from the point of view of
somebody who is mostly a potentional consumer of your work, and most
problably not another developer. If you want to delegate some work you'd
like not to do yourself (for example because you prefer designing and
coding to testing and reorganizing and polishing the docs), than you
have at least to _define_ those pieces and to monitor progress.

>
>> Other people have
>> other projects, where they invest some of their own time and money in.
>
> yes. been there. didn't receive any return on investment. did some
>projects. received about 25% of required money to pay bills. need
>�15k pa; receiving approximately �7-8k.
>
>> >> �I didn't look at
>> >> every example again, but AFAIK, this didn't change with 0.7. (Tried with
>> >> Python 2.6.4/5 on WinXP/7 with Firefox and Chrome, if that matters).
>>
>> > then please issue bugreports for as many as you feel comfortable
>> >with / have time for. �

Well, ok. I put my notes in a Google chart, see
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Au5LhqNQyrfCdGpDbTVjZFJwSERzVUFXVlg5bWl2enc

I had to write a short patch against compile.py (see issue 397) in order
to make it compile the showcase examples on Windows.

In addition, I've tried to create Selenium tests for automating the time
consuming job of checking all those examples, using Selenium IDE in
Firefox. I was my first experience using this against Ajax apps. The
results are somewhat mixed. Playing a round of "lightout" was a breeze,
but so far I hadn't much luck in driving the showcase example(s). I
didn't try very hard, though, because I ran out of time, as I do now.

--
Wir danken f�r die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen
From: lkcl on 7 May 2010 10:06
On May 2, 7:16 am, Wolfgang Strobl <ne...(a)mystrobl.de> wrote:
> lkcl <luke.leigh...(a)googlemail.com>:
>
> > at least _some_ input would be good!  the knowledge doesn't have to
> >be there: just the bugreports saying "there's a problem and here's
> >exactly how you reproduce it" would be a start!
> >> So please make it simpler for more people to help.
> > ... how?? there's a bugtracker, wiki, svn repository, over 30
> >examples and a developer list.  the code really _is_ very very small
> >(the UI widget set, with around 75 widgets, minus the license header
> >text is only around 4,000 lines _total_, making it very very simple
> >and very very easy for people to get used to).  suggestions welcome!
>
> Well, the bunch of programming languages and APIs I collected over the
> years is large enough already. These days I prefer to stay with python
> and c, spiced with an occasional domain specific language. That's why I
> was attracted bypyjamas, to begin with!.  If I'd like to program using
> Eclipse and Java or fool around with JavaScript, I'd do just that. But I
> don't.  IMHO, that ist a general problem of translation tools - they
> attract the wrong people, from the point of view a developer who looks
> for people sharing some of the workload. :-)
>
> So, Luke, I can only answer your question from the point of view of
> somebody who is mostly a potentional consumer of your work, and most
> problably not another developer. If you want to delegate some work you'd
> like not to do yourself (for example because you prefer designing and
> coding to testing and reorganizing and polishing the docs), than you
> have at least to _define_ those pieces and to monitor progress.

the project's run on a much much simpler basis than that: anyone who
wants to contribute absolutely anything, ask, and you get svn access -
simple as that. you get told what the rules are (code that's
committed to trunk must work, must have a commit message, must be
"single-purpose", must follow PEP8 mostly and so on - the usual
obvious stuff).

that's pretty much it.

the project really _is_ run on the basis of it being "a useful tool
for the developers, and if other people benefit from it that's great".

kees wanted a better interpreter, i granted him svn rights, and in
about four to five months he absolutely smacked the compiler into
incredible and amazing shape, including implementing "yield" - fully
and properly across _all_ browsers so that it passes even the python
regression tests.

me, personally, i would be happy with the state the compiler was in,
back in 0.5, because that limited functionality served _my_ purposes.
but, for kees, it definitely didn't: he wanted to be able to compile
http://puremvc.org python code "as-is" and that meant that the
compiler _had_ to be improved.

so it's much _much_ simpler than "delegation of tasks". someone
wants to do something? _great_ - knock yourself out.

that having been said: we do have a TODO list. unsurprisingly, it's
in the top level directory, called "TODO" :)


> >> > then please issue bugreports for as many as you feel comfortable
> >> >with / have time for.  
>
> Well, ok. I put my notes in a Google chart, see http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Au5LhqNQyrfCdGpDbTVjZFJwSERzV...

ouaaaah, absolutely absolutely fantastic, thank you. ok. yep. the
Controls one, someone provided a patch contributing the 2-axis slider
and base class, but it was a bit of a mess, and i belieeve it only
compile(s/d) with --strict. i've made some changes, _thank_ you for
pointing these errors out, i've recorded them in issues.

> I had to write a short patch against compile.py (see issue 397) in order
> to make it compile the showcase examples on Windows.

okaay, good stuff.

> In addition, I've tried to create Selenium tests for automating the time
> consuming job of checking all those examples, using Selenium IDE in
> Firefox. I was my first experience using this against Ajax apps. The
> results are somewhat mixed. Playing a round of "lightout" was a breeze,
> but so far I hadn't much luck in driving the showcase example(s). I
> didn't try very hard, though, because I ran out of time, as I do now.  

hell, your input has been incredibly valuable, i'm very grateful for
the time you've put in.

btw yes i started doing a UITest because yes, it's silly to have to
do so much manual work. by writing a UITest app the goal is to be
able to run the tests automated even across pyjd platforms. it'd be
possible but raather tricky to run selenium under xulrunner/pyjd.

l.
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