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From: Paul on 21 Jun 2010 00:48
JD wrote:
> Strobe wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:29:11 -0700, JD <JD(a)DeadEnd.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Experts,
>>>
>>> Yesterday was a bad one for me. I added a plug from a second computer
>>> to a robust Trip Lite Super 10 strip and a computer that was already
>>> attached to that strip, and running, suddenly stopped working. I
>>> tried it in another socket but still no start. The power supply for
>>> this apparently-dead computer is a PC Power & Cooling Silencer 600w
>>> and very robust.
>>>
>>> I have a tester unit that supposedly checks power supplies when I
>>> remove the cable connection from the mother board and then attach
>>> the tester to that connection. It showed a green light indicating
>>> that the supply is ok. I replaced that PS with another one that also
>>> tested ok but it could not start the computer either. There is no
>>> light at all on the mother board.
>>>
>>> I suspect there may be a short in the Tripp Lite.
>>>
>>> Suggestions please.
>>
>> SInce the PSU itself is good, it's probably not getting the startup
>> command from the MB.
>> The front panel button or MB may have failed (your tester, of course,
>> provides
>> its own startup signal to the PSU).
>>
>> It could be purely coincidental that it happened when plugging in the
>> other PC.
>> I hate it when that happens - over the years, it's made me waste hours
>> chasing
>> wild geese.
>
>
> Thanks again guys for all your help.
>
> I revisited that computer with the Silencer power supply (ps)and found
> some odd things. First, my tester indicated that the main supply from
> the ps to the motherboard was ok - green light. Then I noticed that the
> fan was not running. I tried the ps in several electric outlets away
> from the strip and there was no response. I also used my multimeter on
> the 2x2 connection (4 contacts) that gets connected to the board near
> the CPU. All contacts were dead. I opened up the ps to check if there
> were blown fuses. It is very hard to see everything there but I saw no
> trace of a fuse. This ps has a 5-year warranty and there is at least 3
> years to go.
> The Intel D845 board needs unusual plugs from the power supply - I have
> several Enlights but none has the 2x2 connection.
>
> Now, while this project is developing I have another - to revamp my
> older AL440 box and get it into a circuit with a new (Samsung) NetBook,
> a new D-Link router, and a new DSL modem that I bought recently to
> replace my dead Siemens Speedstream 4100 - well, it's alive apart from
> the DSL light. ;-) Will start this project with a new thread. My
> toughest problem will be dealing with Windows 7 (stripped!). I have been
> using Win2K for over 10 years and, from what I have seen so far, the 7
> or even a stripped 7, will be quite a change.
>
> Have a great weekend :-)
>
>
>

When you say "tester", it isn't clear what kind of tester that is.
That could be a device that plugs into the main power connector,
shorts PS_ON# to COM, uses window comparators on the main supply
voltage rails, and tells you whether each rail is within +/- 5%
of the right value.

A multimeter does simple things, like measure one voltage at a time.
It is a general purpose tester. It isn't that specific for power
supplies, and may need some other things connected to the supply
to make a test setup.

To make a PSU work, away from the PC, you have to connect PS_ON# to
an adjacent COM pin with a paper clip. That will turn on all the
rails. A purpose-built tester dongle, has that connection already
in place.

Without the paper clip in place, you should be able to measure and
verify the +5VSB pin. If +5VSB is good, then you can move on to the
main rails.

With the paper clip connecting PS_ON# to COM on the main harness,
you can go about measuring +3.3, +5, +12, -12V, on the main
cable, as well as picking up the 2x2 ATX12V connector and
checking it for +12V. The fans in the computer, run from the 12V output
carried on the main connector. The CPU runs from the voltage on the
2x2 connector. The power supply fan should start to run, when the
paper clip is in place. Some supplies may choose to not run the fan
at all when they're cold, but then, as the owner of the supply, you're
probably familiar with its habits in daily usage. A change of habit
is enough to suggest something isn't working right in the supply.

Power supply specs, old ones to new ones.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030424061333/http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx/ATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf

http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx/ATX12V_1_3dg.pdf

http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf

At least one poster, has corrected my description above, by suggesting
the power supply should have a slight "test load" connected to the supply,
when the PS_ON# jumper is in place. I have a load box I built here, which
would meet that definition, and that is what I use to ensure the power
supply stays within regulation. I've also tested a couple supplies without
a load on them, and they behaved themselves.

I know that in the past, some power supplies have had a set of
"minimum loading" current values in amperes printed on the label,
and the supply may not be guaranteed to stay within +/-5 % if that
minimum specified load is missing. About the absolute worst power supply
design I've seen, had a "minimum load" of roughly 25% of the rail capacity,
which is absurd. Many computers might not manage to present that amount of
loading in day to day usage, let alone constructing load boxes to meet the
load.

While a modern supply may not need a load to behave well (some actually have a
switchable load inside, to handle this on their own), you'll have to use your
own judgment as to whether that is necessary or a good idea or not. While I could
insist to you to "build your own load box" or "connect a couple old disk
drives you're no longer using", you'll have to decide yourself, what you want
to use. And "light bulbs" are not the best loading solution, as the
cold filament may double or triple the load current for the first few
seconds. Light bulbs are a non-linear resistor. Attempting to build a
100W load from light bulbs, might cause a 300W load for the first
few seconds. My load box uses regular power resistors I got at my local
(good) electronics store. A place like Radio Shack, wouldn't have a wide
enough selection of components, to carry good power resistors.

The power supply has one other pin of interest, which is something
like "Power Good". That is a logic level signal. The supply could be
merrily humming away, but if Power Good is not asserted, the PC won't come
out of reset, and the screen will remain black. You can check the voltage
level on that signal, just like any other wire, by using your multimeter
set to volts. The power supply specs above, will tell you whether that
signal is active high or not, in which case you'd be looking for a level
closer to 5V than to 0V.

When using the multimeter for tasks like this, I try to place the black probe,
onto a pin on an idle cable somewhere. Basically, what I suggest to you,
is don't get the tips of the red and black leads close together, because
you can short them accidentally. As part of my test procedure, first I
make sure the black lead is well away from where I'm measuring (but still
connected to a black wire or to the chassis), before starting a series of
measurements. I haven't had a short yet, by doing so.

I had a friend working in the lab with me one night, and there was a bright
flash of white light coming from his side of the lab. I ran over to see what
happened, and he'd shorted a 5V @ 100A supply to ground. The short point
was the leg of an integrated circuit. With 100A available, the leg on the
integrated circuit was vaporized instantly, leading to the burst of white light.
Very impressive, and no harm to my buddy. Some modern PC supplies
can do stuff like that too, as PC supplies are now up into the 1200W
range. So try not to get any test leads or probe tips, close together.
Either that, or as they say "pack a change of underwear" for when the
fireworks start :-)

Paul
From: JD on 21 Jun 2010 09:32
Paul wrote:
> JD wrote:
>> Strobe wrote:
>>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:29:11 -0700, JD
<JD(a)DeadEnd.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Experts,
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday was a bad one for me. I added a
plug from a second computer to a robust Trip Lite
Super 10 strip and a computer that was already
attached to that strip, and running, suddenly
stopped working. I tried it in another socket but
still no start. The power supply for this
apparently-dead computer is a PC Power & Cooling
Silencer 600w and very robust.
>>>>
>>>> I have a tester unit that supposedly checks
power supplies when I remove the cable connection
from the mother board and then attach the tester
to that connection. It showed a green light
indicating that the supply is ok. I replaced that
PS with another one that also tested ok but it
could not start the computer either. There is no
light at all on the mother board.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect there may be a short in the Tripp
Lite.
>>>>
>>>> Suggestions please.
>>>
>>> SInce the PSU itself is good, it's probably
not getting the startup command from the MB.
>>> The front panel button or MB may have failed
(your tester, of course, provides
>>> its own startup signal to the PSU).
>>>
>>> It could be purely coincidental that it
happened when plugging in the other PC.
>>> I hate it when that happens - over the years,
it's made me waste hours chasing
>>> wild geese.
>>
>>
>> Thanks again guys for all your help.
>>
>> I revisited that computer with the Silencer
power supply (ps)and found some odd things. First,
my tester indicated that the main supply from the
ps to the motherboard was ok - green light. Then I
noticed that the fan was not running. I tried the
ps in several electric outlets away from the strip
and there was no response. I also used my
multimeter on the 2x2 connection (4 contacts) that
gets connected to the board near the CPU. All
contacts were dead. I opened up the ps to check if
there were blown fuses. It is very hard to see
everything there but I saw no trace of a fuse.
This ps has a 5-year warranty and there is at
least 3 years to go.
>> The Intel D845 board needs unusual plugs from
the power supply - I have several Enlights but
none has the 2x2 connection.
>>
>> Now, while this project is developing I have
another - to revamp my older AL440 box and get it
into a circuit with a new (Samsung) NetBook, a new
D-Link router, and a new DSL modem that I bought
recently to replace my dead Siemens Speedstream
4100 - well, it's alive apart from the DSL light.
;-) Will start this project with a new thread. My
toughest problem will be dealing with Windows 7
(stripped!). I have been using Win2K for over 10
years and, from what I have seen so far, the 7 or
even a stripped 7, will be quite a change.
>>
>> Have a great weekend :-)

Huge thanks again Paul.

> When you say "tester", it isn't clear what kind
of tester that is.
> That could be a device that plugs into the main
power connector,
> shorts PS_ON# to COM, uses window comparators
on the main supply
> voltage rails, and tells you whether each rail
is within ± 5%
> of the right value.

The tester is a little device that I bought from
PC Power & Cooling - same company that I bought
the 600w. Silencer from. To do the test it is
attached to the main power supply plug that fits
into socket on the motherboard and has 20
connections. However, the unit has only 6 contacts
so it can't measure very accurately. It gave the
green light when the
Silencer PS was not working. I discovered that one
of my Enlights has a 2x2 plug and it is now
running the computer that the Silencer was removed
from. I will return the Silencer
because it doesn't work at present and it has far
too many fat cable connectors for my liking. The
Enlight is just right but it supports only 360Watts.

> A multimeter does simple things, like measure
one voltage at a time.
> It is a general purpose tester. It isn't that
specific for power
> supplies, and may need some other things
connected to the supply
> to make a test setup.

I have several but haven't needed to use them very
much on computers.

> To make a PSU work, away from the PC, you have
to connect PS_ON# to
> an adjacent COM pin with a paper clip. That
will turn on all the
> rails. A purpose-built tester dongle, has that
connection already
> in place.
>
> Without the paper clip in place, you should be
able to measure and
> verify the +5VSB pin. If +5VSB is good, then
you can move on to the
> main rails.
>
> With the paper clip connecting PS_ON# to COM on
the main harness,
> you can go about measuring +3.3, +5, +12, -12V,
on the main
> cable, as well as picking up the 2x2 ATX12V
connector and
> checking it for +12V. The fans in the computer,
run from the 12V output
> carried on the main connector. The CPU runs
from the voltage on the
> 2x2 connector. The power supply fan should
start to run, when the
> paper clip is in place. Some supplies may
choose to not run the fan
> at all when they're cold, but then, as the
owner of the supply, you're
> probably familiar with its habits in daily
usage. A change of habit
> is enough to suggest something isn't working
right in the supply.
>
> Power supply specs, old ones to new ones.
>
>
http://web.archive.org/web/20030424061333/http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx/ATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf
>
>
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx/ATX12V_1_3dg.pdf
>
>
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf
>
> At least one poster, has corrected my
description above, by suggesting
> the power supply should have a slight "test
load" connected to the supply,
> when the PS_ON# jumper is in place. I have a
load box I built here, which
> would meet that definition, and that is what I
use to ensure the power
> supply stays within regulation. I've also
tested a couple supplies without
> a load on them, and they behaved themselves.
>
> I know that in the past, some power supplies
have had a set of
> "minimum loading" current values in amperes
printed on the label,
> and the supply may not be guaranteed to stay
within ±5 % if that
> minimum specified load is missing. About the
absolute worst power supply
> design I've seen, had a "minimum load" of
roughly 25% of the rail capacity,
> which is absurd. Many computers might not
manage to present that amount of
> loading in day to day usage, let alone
constructing load boxes to meet the
> load.
>
> While a modern supply may not need a load to
behave well (some actually have a
> switchable load inside, to handle this on their
own), you'll have to use your
> own judgment as to whether that is necessary or
a good idea or not. While I could
> insist to you to "build your own load box" or
"connect a couple old disk
> drives you're no longer using", you'll have to
decide yourself, what you want
> to use. And "light bulbs" are not the best
loading solution, as the
> cold filament may double or triple the load
current for the first few
> seconds. Light bulbs are a non-linear resistor.
Attempting to build a
> 100W load from light bulbs, might cause a 300W
load for the first
> few seconds. My load box uses regular power
resistors I got at my local
> (good) electronics store. A place like Radio
Shack, wouldn't have a wide
> enough selection of components, to carry good
power resistors.
>
> The power supply has one other pin of interest,
which is something
> like "Power Good". That is a logic level
signal. The supply could be
> merrily humming away, but if Power Good is not
asserted, the PC won't come
> out of reset, and the screen will remain black.
You can check the voltage
> level on that signal, just like any other wire,
by using your multimeter
> set to volts. The power supply specs above,
will tell you whether that
> signal is active high or not, in which case
you'd be looking for a level
> closer to 5V than to 0V.
>
> When using the multimeter for tasks like this,
I try to place the black probe,
> onto a pin on an idle cable somewhere.
Basically, what I suggest to you,
> is don't get the tips of the red and black
leads close together, because
> you can short them accidentally. As part of my
test procedure, first I
> make sure the black lead is well away from
where I'm measuring (but still
> connected to a black wire or to the chassis),
before starting a series of
> measurements. I haven't had a short yet, by
doing so.
>
> I had a friend working in the lab with me one
night, and there was a bright
> flash of white light coming from his side of
the lab. I ran over to see what
> happened, and he'd shorted a 5V @ 100A supply
to ground. The short point
> was the leg of an integrated circuit. With 100A
available, the leg on the
> integrated circuit was vaporized instantly,
leading to the burst of white light.
> Very impressive, and no harm to my buddy. Some
modern PC supplies
> can do stuff like that too, as PC supplies are
now up into the 1200W
> range. So try not to get any test leads or
probe tips, close together.
> Either that, or as they say "pack a change of
underwear" for when the
> fireworks start :-)
>
> Paul

Thank you Paul for this great list of information.
I will copy and use it whenever I get into another
hole.

I'm very happy now to have the computer with the
D845 board running again. I wanted
to use it in the 2-computer (or more later) LAN I
am setting up. After the Silencer was silenced I
had to fall back on Box2 - with the AL44LX. Sadly,
that one died last night. I took all the
components out and replaced them but still no
spark of life. However, the motherboard did have
a long life - about 15 years.

I have another project to set up a LAN and I
thought I was making great strides when I had a
computer and the NetBook connected to the 'net.
There is a lot more to it than I thought, so that
is my next task.

Thanks again and have a great week :-)
From: JD on 22 Jun 2010 14:35
This crash has left me with another problem.

The Silencer has a few ATA connections and lots of
IDEs. That was convenient for the only internal
ATA drive I have. My present Enlight ps has only
IDE connections. I could put the SATA drive into
an external case and use it in that way but I had
bad experiences with that before. I had to reboot
very often to find it on my screen. Is there any
such thing as a small plugin device to a PCI or
USB source that would provide the power for this
internal ATA drive.

TIA
From: Paul on 22 Jun 2010 15:26
JD wrote:
> This crash has left me with another problem.
>
> The Silencer has a few ATA connections and lots of IDEs. That was
> convenient for the only internal ATA drive I have. My present Enlight ps
> has only IDE connections. I could put the SATA drive into an external
> case and use it in that way but I had bad experiences with that before.
> I had to reboot very often to find it on my screen. Is there any such
> thing as a small plugin device to a PCI or USB source that would provide
> the power for this internal ATA drive.
>
> TIA

Do you mean one of these ?

"Molex 4-pin Male to 15-pin SATA Power Cable"

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812186043

They also make "Y" cable versions, with male and female Molex, so
you can chain adapters together.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812123120

The Molex has good current carrying capacity, which is why it
makes a good candidate for chaining. The SATA on the other hand,
is lacking in that department. If a power supply had only
SATA power connectors on it, you'd be in some difficulty getting
power for accessories. I've had three or four Molex Y cables in a chain,
to power things like fans, video card aux connector, disk drives
and so on. So for me, chaining does come in handy.

Paul
From: JD on 28 Jun 2010 15:36
Paul wrote:
> JD wrote:
>> This crash has left me with another problem.
>>
>> The Silencer has a few ATA connections and lots of IDEs. That was
>> convenient for the only internal ATA drive I have. My present Enlight
>> ps has only IDE connections. I could put the SATA drive into an
>> external case and use it in that way but I had bad experiences with
>> that before. I had to reboot very often to find it on my screen. Is
>> there any such thing as a small plugin device to a PCI or USB source
>> that would provide the power for this internal ATA drive.
>>
>> TIA
>
> Do you mean one of these ?
>
> "Molex 4-pin Male to 15-pin SATA Power Cable"
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812186043
>
> They also make "Y" cable versions, with male and female Molex, so
> you can chain adapters together.
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812123120
>
> The Molex has good current carrying capacity, which is why it
> makes a good candidate for chaining. The SATA on the other hand,
> is lacking in that department. If a power supply had only
> SATA power connectors on it, you'd be in some difficulty getting
> power for accessories. I've had three or four Molex Y cables in a chain,
> to power things like fans, video card aux connector, disk drives
> and so on. So for me, chaining does come in handy.
>
> Paul

Thanks Paul for your help. You probably know by
now that I found the connector
to link the SATA drive to the power supply. What a
relief!
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