File input problem
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From: dorayme on 14 Dec 2009 16:38 In article <915fbe3e-4d34-47eb-98a7-dbeb553e3c3e(a)v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Mark Smith <marksmith5555(a)jungle-monkey.com> wrote: > > Imagine if every song you downloaded were to impose its producer's own > > conception of how music player controls should look on your music > > player, or if the display of the volume control bar on your TV screen > > depended on what channel or program you were watching. Perhaps a station > > broadcasting a slasher film would want your volume control display to > > look like it was dripping with blood. Wouldn't that be awesome? (being > > ironic) > > I think the anology needs taken one step further to reflect where we > are currently with web standards. > > Imagine if every song you downloaded sounded different on every type > of player - not how the musician intended. Wouldn't that be awesome? :) It would be wrong to take the analogy so far because all browsers need to very good at delivering some constants like *what is being said about what* (as well as other things like pictures). Only the actions of webpage makers obscure this (eg. by making the main message hard to read for some people). It would be a bad browser, a naughty browser, a browser who would miss out on dessert and sent to bed early, that break into a song to rearrange it or made it any different to what it should be. As naughty as it would for a browser to take it on itself to alter the order of the words in the content of a P element, a particular song is a very particular thing and not something to be trifled with. Please withdraw your analogy. Now. -- dorayme
From: Harlan Messinger on 15 Dec 2009 08:19 Mark Smith wrote: > On Dec 11, 1:06 pm, Harlan Messinger > <hmessinger.removet...(a)comcast.net> wrote: >> David Mark wrote: >>> On Dec 7, 6:54 am, Stefan Weiss <krewech...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On 07/12/09 11:50, Mark Smith wrote: >>>>> Oh, and for anyone else that is interested, I found an option 5. Ajax >>>>> uploads seem to be triggerable from script: >>>>> http://valums.com/wp-content/uploads/ajax-upload/demo-jquery.htm >>>> Did you look at how this was actually implemented? Apart from requiring >>>> JQuery, that demo page has file upload fields with opacity:0 overlayed >>>> above its buttons and links. I'd say this qualifies as >>>> | #3 Use some hacky CSS and overlays to style the file picker. >>> Yes. Most Web developers (or "designers") want everything to look >>> exactly the way they want it to look and never mind what the user >>> agent thinks. CSS "resets", brittle hacks, anything goes if it makes >>> it look exactly the same in IE, FF and Safari. It's backwards as the >>> developers of the user agents probably had a good idea of what sort of >>> default style would work best for inputs (buttons particularly). >> Imagine if every song you downloaded were to impose its producer's own >> conception of how music player controls should look on your music >> player, or if the display of the volume control bar on your TV screen >> depended on what channel or program you were watching. Perhaps a station >> broadcasting a slasher film would want your volume control display to >> look like it was dripping with blood. Wouldn't that be awesome? (being >> ironic) > > I think the anology needs taken one step further to reflect where we > are currently with web standards. > > Imagine if every song you downloaded sounded different on every type > of player - not how the musician intended. Wouldn't that be awesome? :) Music does sound different depending on the player and device. The music coming out of my Treo sounds very different from the sound coming out of my Toshiba Satellite's built-in speakers, and different again from the sound that comes out of my Onkyo tuner through my five KLM speakers. In addition, the sound coming out of my Onkyo can sound "multidimensional", and I can apply MY choice of sound distribution, and the musicians can't do a damn thing about it.
From: Mark Smith on 15 Dec 2009 09:08 On Dec 15, 1:19 pm, Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removet...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > Mark Smith wrote: > > On Dec 11, 1:06 pm, Harlan Messinger > > <hmessinger.removet...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > >> David Mark wrote: > >>> On Dec 7, 6:54 am, Stefan Weiss <krewech...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> On 07/12/09 11:50, Mark Smith wrote: > >>>>> Oh, and for anyone else that is interested, I found an option 5. Ajax > >>>>> uploads seem to be triggerable from script: > >>>>>http://valums.com/wp-content/uploads/ajax-upload/demo-jquery.htm > >>>> Did you look at how this was actually implemented? Apart from requiring > >>>> JQuery, that demo page has file upload fields with opacity:0 overlayed > >>>> above its buttons and links. I'd say this qualifies as > >>>> | #3 Use some hacky CSS and overlays to style the file picker. > >>> Yes. Most Web developers (or "designers") want everything to look > >>> exactly the way they want it to look and never mind what the user > >>> agent thinks. CSS "resets", brittle hacks, anything goes if it makes > >>> it look exactly the same in IE, FF and Safari. It's backwards as the > >>> developers of the user agents probably had a good idea of what sort of > >>> default style would work best for inputs (buttons particularly). > >> Imagine if every song you downloaded were to impose its producer's own > >> conception of how music player controls should look on your music > >> player, or if the display of the volume control bar on your TV screen > >> depended on what channel or program you were watching. Perhaps a station > >> broadcasting a slasher film would want your volume control display to > >> look like it was dripping with blood. Wouldn't that be awesome? (being > >> ironic) > > > I think the anology needs taken one step further to reflect where we > > are currently with web standards. > > > Imagine if every song you downloaded sounded different on every type > > of player - not how the musician intended. Wouldn't that be awesome? :) > > Music does sound different depending on the player and device. The music > coming out of my Treo sounds very different from the sound coming out of > my Toshiba Satellite's built-in speakers, and different again from the > sound that comes out of my Onkyo tuner through my five KLM speakers. In > addition, the sound coming out of my Onkyo can sound "multidimensional", > and I can apply MY choice of sound distribution, and the musicians can't > do a damn thing about it. Type of speaker, distribution, sound levels, post processing effects etc are analogous to the screen type, browser zoom, window size controls etc, i.e. they are under the user control and can override the defaults (if they wish). Playlist management and navigation controls are analogous to the browser address bar, back forward and history, i.e. nothing to do with the content provider. Elements on a web page however are like the instruments in music. Having css styles applied to some elements on some browsers but not others is like having a cd player that (without being asked) replaces all percussion instruments on a track with a crappy sounding keyboard synthesiser! (It's a mess and the standards need fixed).
From: Harlan Messinger on 15 Dec 2009 09:33 Mark Smith wrote: > On Dec 15, 1:19 pm, Harlan Messinger > <hmessinger.removet...(a)comcast.net> wrote: >> Mark Smith wrote: >>> On Dec 11, 1:06 pm, Harlan Messinger >>> <hmessinger.removet...(a)comcast.net> wrote: >>>> David Mark wrote: >>>>> On Dec 7, 6:54 am, Stefan Weiss <krewech...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On 07/12/09 11:50, Mark Smith wrote: >>>>>>> Oh, and for anyone else that is interested, I found an option 5. Ajax >>>>>>> uploads seem to be triggerable from script: >>>>>>> http://valums.com/wp-content/uploads/ajax-upload/demo-jquery.htm >>>>>> Did you look at how this was actually implemented? Apart from requiring >>>>>> JQuery, that demo page has file upload fields with opacity:0 overlayed >>>>>> above its buttons and links. I'd say this qualifies as >>>>>> | #3 Use some hacky CSS and overlays to style the file picker. >>>>> Yes. Most Web developers (or "designers") want everything to look >>>>> exactly the way they want it to look and never mind what the user >>>>> agent thinks. CSS "resets", brittle hacks, anything goes if it makes >>>>> it look exactly the same in IE, FF and Safari. It's backwards as the >>>>> developers of the user agents probably had a good idea of what sort of >>>>> default style would work best for inputs (buttons particularly). >>>> Imagine if every song you downloaded were to impose its producer's own >>>> conception of how music player controls should look on your music >>>> player, or if the display of the volume control bar on your TV screen >>>> depended on what channel or program you were watching. Perhaps a station >>>> broadcasting a slasher film would want your volume control display to >>>> look like it was dripping with blood. Wouldn't that be awesome? (being >>>> ironic) >>> I think the anology needs taken one step further to reflect where we >>> are currently with web standards. >>> Imagine if every song you downloaded sounded different on every type >>> of player - not how the musician intended. Wouldn't that be awesome? :) >> Music does sound different depending on the player and device. The music >> coming out of my Treo sounds very different from the sound coming out of >> my Toshiba Satellite's built-in speakers, and different again from the >> sound that comes out of my Onkyo tuner through my five KLM speakers. In >> addition, the sound coming out of my Onkyo can sound "multidimensional", >> and I can apply MY choice of sound distribution, and the musicians can't >> do a damn thing about it. > > Type of speaker, distribution, sound levels, post processing effects > etc are analogous to the screen type, browser zoom, window size > controls etc, i.e. they are under the user control and can override > the defaults (if they wish). > > Playlist management and navigation controls are analogous to the > browser address bar, back forward and history, i.e. nothing to do with > the content provider. > > Elements on a web page however are like the instruments in music. > Having css styles applied to some elements on some browsers but not > others is like having a cd player that (without being asked) replaces > all percussion instruments on a track with a crappy sounding keyboard > synthesiser! (It's a mess and the standards need fixed). Your notion that the same considerations apply uniformly to anything that is part of the web page is flawed. Form controls are user interface devices, regardless of the fact that they are on the page rather than built into the browser, and therefore there are considerations that apply to them independently of those that apply to lists and tables.
From: Mark Smith on 15 Dec 2009 09:54
On Dec 15, 2:33 pm, Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removet...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > Mark Smith wrote: > > On Dec 15, 1:19 pm, Harlan Messinger > > <hmessinger.removet...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > >> Mark Smith wrote: > >>> On Dec 11, 1:06 pm, Harlan Messinger > >>> <hmessinger.removet...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > >>>> David Mark wrote: > >>>>> On Dec 7, 6:54 am, Stefan Weiss <krewech...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>> On 07/12/09 11:50, Mark Smith wrote: > >>>>>>> Oh, and for anyone else that is interested, I found an option 5. Ajax > >>>>>>> uploads seem to be triggerable from script: > >>>>>>>http://valums.com/wp-content/uploads/ajax-upload/demo-jquery.htm > >>>>>> Did you look at how this was actually implemented? Apart from requiring > >>>>>> JQuery, that demo page has file upload fields with opacity:0 overlayed > >>>>>> above its buttons and links. I'd say this qualifies as > >>>>>> | #3 Use some hacky CSS and overlays to style the file picker. > >>>>> Yes. Most Web developers (or "designers") want everything to look > >>>>> exactly the way they want it to look and never mind what the user > >>>>> agent thinks. CSS "resets", brittle hacks, anything goes if it makes > >>>>> it look exactly the same in IE, FF and Safari. It's backwards as the > >>>>> developers of the user agents probably had a good idea of what sort of > >>>>> default style would work best for inputs (buttons particularly). > >>>> Imagine if every song you downloaded were to impose its producer's own > >>>> conception of how music player controls should look on your music > >>>> player, or if the display of the volume control bar on your TV screen > >>>> depended on what channel or program you were watching. Perhaps a station > >>>> broadcasting a slasher film would want your volume control display to > >>>> look like it was dripping with blood. Wouldn't that be awesome? (being > >>>> ironic) > >>> I think the anology needs taken one step further to reflect where we > >>> are currently with web standards. > >>> Imagine if every song you downloaded sounded different on every type > >>> of player - not how the musician intended. Wouldn't that be awesome? :) > >> Music does sound different depending on the player and device. The music > >> coming out of my Treo sounds very different from the sound coming out of > >> my Toshiba Satellite's built-in speakers, and different again from the > >> sound that comes out of my Onkyo tuner through my five KLM speakers. In > >> addition, the sound coming out of my Onkyo can sound "multidimensional", > >> and I can apply MY choice of sound distribution, and the musicians can't > >> do a damn thing about it. > > > Type of speaker, distribution, sound levels, post processing effects > > etc are analogous to the screen type, browser zoom, window size > > controls etc, i.e. they are under the user control and can override > > the defaults (if they wish). > > > Playlist management and navigation controls are analogous to the > > browser address bar, back forward and history, i.e. nothing to do with > > the content provider. > > > Elements on a web page however are like the instruments in music. > > Having css styles applied to some elements on some browsers but not > > others is like having a cd player that (without being asked) replaces > > all percussion instruments on a track with a crappy sounding keyboard > > synthesiser! (It's a mess and the standards need fixed). > > Your notion that the same considerations apply uniformly to anything > that is part of the web page is flawed. I didn't start the analogy. > Form controls are user interface > devices, regardless of the fact that they are on the page rather than > built into the browser, and therefore there are considerations that > apply to them independently of those that apply to lists and tables. If that's the case, the standards still need fixed to specify that it is up to the agent. Rather than this halfway house where we currently have elements that are partly styled by css and partly by the browser. To make things worse, which parts that CAN be styled are also different between browsers. |