Management wars [Cobol]

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From: Pete Dashwood on 14 Sep 2005 22:56

From: jce on 16 Sep 2005 01:29

<docdwarf(a)panix.com> wrote in message news:dg97us$km9$1(a)reader1.panix.com...
> In article <oNUVe.485$jS.483(a)newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
> Michael Mattias <michael.mattias(a)gte.net> wrote:
>><docdwarf(a)panix.com> wrote in message
>>news:dg91vb$7pt$1(a)reader1.panix.com...
>>> In article
>><joe_zitzelberger-36114C.02473614092005(a)ispnews.usenetserver.com>,
>>> Joe Zitzelberger <joe_zitzelberger(a)nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>. [inserted by writer for total clarity]
>>>>My manager (and I am blessed with one of the best) is very skilled at
>>>>organizing and structuring team work activity for maximum performance.
>>
>>>>I am very skilled at creating the software he asks me to create as part
>>>>of that process.
>>
>>>>The skills are completely different...
>>
>>> >One does not need competence in the both areas to make judgments.
>>>
>>> One does not need, in my experience, too much of *anything* to make
>>> judgements... what value is seen in these judgements, however, might be
>>> another matter, entire.
>>
>>I simply MUST concur with Mr. Z here. Management is an entirely different
>>profession from programming/development, requiring different skills, a
>>different temperment and a different perspective.
>
> And I agree with you, Mr Mattias, that management of a group performing
> (function) requires different skills, temperment and perspective than
> performing (function) might.
>
>>
>>And just like being a programmer, the more of the required skills one has
>>in
>>his chosen discipline, the better that person will be at that task.
>
> Here I must disagree, having seen too much 'Look, Ma, I'm a Programmer!'
> code. There are cases where the newbie, who does not know anything else,
> will generate a solution similar to that of the oldbie, who has seen more
> of the mistakes and knows to simplify; the journeyman... journeyperson...
> mid-level skilled folks can, at times, induce unnecessary complexity.

Actually - this is my complaint of the young people now [this is a huge
generalization utilizing the 80-20 rule]. It's like they've been misguided
into the belief that everything has a standard "pattern". Tests are
standardized in college, answers are provided....in fact the question has to
be asked in a way that there is only one answer (in case the child gets a
bad mark you see...subjectivity opens you up to lawsuits).

There seems to me to be a batch of "excellent" coders without just the base
level human creative logic processes.....My brain is slowly melting, that's
my excuse....It is a definite fact that my brain has eroded over the last
few years by working with the endless stupidity....I find that I am
sympathetic to the elders in the office now that I understand they have 30+
years of it.

I've also seen that a lot of "old" people were really skilled in other
areas, but there was a time when _anyone_ could be a programmer....making a
good elementary teacher work as a highly paid, yet mediocre, DBA.

I think I agree with both of you. The more skills one has the better of you
are...unfortunately it's the "wrong" skills that are emphasised - even in
programming. I believe that sometimes the best way to produce a code is to
have someone who can "code" and another who can "think" and
describe.......I've seen too many good skills walk out of the door because
they didn't have the right major or certification....I'd take a good history
student over an average comp sci student any day of the week...especially
weekends (they're much more fun)

>>Of course the 'value' of judgments will be seen differently by the manager
>>and the technical professional.. the technical person's perspective is
>>limited to the technical, whereas the manager's valuation is made
>>considering the perspectives of sales, administration, finance, production
>>and all the other functional areas of a company's business.
>
> ... and completely ignores who is getting the corner office, the company
> car, the heavy-chested secretary and the bigger budget... and I am the
> King of England, as well.

Can I be honorary chair of Northern Ireland given that they have a better
football team?

>>Biggest mistake made by far too many companies: Automatically selecting
>>the
>>best <anything> to be the new "<anything> manager."
>
> Sounds like a Peter Principle to me, aye.
>
> DD

Maybe they lost the Sword of Damocles....

Is everyone here referring to a "first level" of management? I find that in
my organization - the directors make decisions, the managers follow. Any
conduct issues above trivial items such as - he said "Betty Swollocks" in
front of a lady - are handled by human resources if not the director. The
manager just has to document a warning and do minimal smoothing over.

In my area - there is the inverse proximity law...We care about my 1st line
but couldn't care less about the VPs. If the company goes broke the VP
still has his mansions and his protected pension...my manager is screwed
just like me. Sometimes I feel like my immediate manager is sitting at the
back of the bus with me.

JCE

From: Michael Mattias on 16 Sep 2005 07:22

"jce" <defaultuser(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NKsWe.57045$4i6.12135(a)tornado.tampabay.rr.com...

> Is everyone here referring to a "first level" of management? I find that
in
> my organization - the directors make decisions, the managers follow.

> Any conduct issues above trivial items such as - he said "Betty
Swollocks" in
> front of a lady - are handled by human resources if not the director. The
> manager just has to document a warning and do minimal smoothing over.

I use the word 'manager' in its literal and classical sense. I'm not talking
about someone who has a meaningless 'manager' in his job title.

Best definition I've heard of what defines a manager is "one whose
responsibility it is to accomplish things through people." That is, what
specific tasks the putative 'manager' does are immaterial - the sole basis
for evaluation is results.

Another disclaimer is in order: All my management experience is in small
business, where we never had the time or money to play games with
meaningless titles. You have a personnel problem? You handle it, you don't
have a 'human resources department' to which you may hand it off . You need
more people to get the assigned task done? You make the case for more money
in your budget. (Yes, even very small companies have budgets).

I have discovered - or more accurately, learned - that successful
owner-entrepreneurs are first and foremost 'vision' people, with terrific
'sales/marketing' skills.. and generally weak hands-on day-to-day management
expertise. My small-business management positions are best described with
this simple mission statement: "turning the rash promises of the owner into
reality at a profit."

MCM

MCM

From: Pete Dashwood on 16 Sep 2005 10:52

OK, here's some thoughts and comments on the thread and, specifically,
points raised by various posters (I haven't named and quoted as I want to
keep this response general...)

In two weeks time I will be taking on the management of a very large, and
business-critical project for a corporation in Auckland. I believe this may
be the last significant job I do in my career. As such, it has caused me to
pause and reflect on many things.

In the negotiations for it, I had to contact people who have managed me,
people who have worked with me and people whom I have managed, and there was
required to be a mixture of males and females. They are scattered around
the world and it was quite a job. I have never asked any of these people to
act as referees before, so I had no idea what they might say about me... :-)
They would be contacted by phone, so I had no input or comment on what was
discussed. (Fortunately, they were all very supportive, and positive, but
it made me
think about what I've done right, what I could've done better, and what sort
of approaches are most likely to be effective in the upcoming project.)

I 'm going to start off with some principles which I believe are important,
and then move to some specific responses made in this thread. Obviously,
because this is a public forum, I am quite happy to comment further, debate,
defend or agree with any comments on the post you care to make.

I could write a chapter on every one of the principles expressed below, and
these are by no means all the things pertaining to the workplace, which I
have learned over the years.

The objective is to try and get some essential insights into how things
could be better...

SECTION 1.

Here are some principles that are often overlooked, but which I think ANYONE
WHO WORKS FOR A LIVING should consider. This applies at ANY level in the
organisation, and irrespective of whether you are a contractor or permanent
staff.

1. Do I agree at a personal level with the products of this company, and
consider them useful or, at the very least, not harmful to the populace, or
am I working here simply because I need to make a living, or because it is
handy to home, or whatever...?
(Applying this principle may have saved my life once... I turned down a
very lucrative contract to work on a particular database design, when I
found out the purpose of it. I won't give details here, but it involved the
Shah of Iran's secret police (SAVAK) and when the Ayotollah Khomeini came to
power a few months later, they were the first ones against the wall...)

If you cannot agree at a fundamental level with the goals and products
of the organisation you are working for, you are never likely to do your
best work, or feel happy in your job.
Set aside the organisational goal of 'profit' when you consider this;
everyone you will work for has to make a profit or they can't employ you.
Don't consider profit to be a shallow, bad thing. Profit to the exclusion of
all else, is a bad thing.

2. How will working here improve my personal growth? I need to grow my
career and I need to grow as a person. A good job can help both of these
areas.

When I look back over the years, I am well aware that the employee and
the person I was 20 years ago, 30 years ago, is considerably different from
the person and employee I am today.

Challenges help us grow.

Both professionally and personally. If you have a manager who is 'on your
case'
and makes life difficult, consider your options. You could quit or get moved
to another department, but what happens when the next guy is just as bad? At
some stage you are going to need to deal with 'bad' management. I have
quite a bit to offer on this, so I can't really post it all here. Here are
some very quick, basic rules:

1. Never lose your temper in the workplace. If you feel anger rising,
walk away. Calm down, then try again.
2. Raise issues privately with the person concerned, never in public.
3. Don't engage in petty wars (a devastating nuclear attack is OK as
long as it is decisive and over quickly :-)).
4. Listen to what is being said and what isn't being said. Think about
it before you act.

If you are in a job where your manager is making your life a misery,
contact me privately and I'll try and help. IT (particularly, but business
in general) will cause conflict. How you deal with it is entirely within
your own power, even if, organisationally, you have none...

3. Set yourself daily personal goals. What do I intend to achieve today?
Don't go home until you do them, or are satisfied that they are totally
outside
your power to do (dependency on others who are not present, for example).
If you do this, it makes you feel good when you achieve them, and
consequently makes going to work a more enjoyable experience.

4. If you get up in the morning and dread going to work, try and isolate why
you feel that way, decide if there is anything you can do about it. (If you
really can't, and all attempts at discussion have failed, consider other
employment. No one
should be 'sentenced' to a working life of misery and
unhappiness...Besides, you'll just drag others down around you... :-))

5. Decide that you will do the very best you are capable of. It isn't about
rewards or status, or acknowledgement (although all of these are nice to
have); it is about applying your skill as a professional, to the best of
your ability. Knowing you gave it your best shot, no matter what anyone else
may think. This is the secret of job satisfaction; recognising that you did
something as well as you know how, even though it may never be recognised by
anyone else. Take responsibility for what you do. (Except when the Nuremburg
rule applies.... see below).

6. Seek to extend your knowledge. Learn from yourself and others (to this
day, every time I write program code and it goes live, I review it - trying
to look at it as if I had never seen it before - and look at how I might
have improved it. Seek to make every program you write better than the last
one) and share what you know with them. Don't ever believe there is only one
right way, and accept the right of others to reject your advice.

7. Separate work from person. If someone is critical of your work, or
doesn't take your advice, don't take it personally. You are no less of a
person because someone didn't like something you did.

SECTION 2

Here are some principles that I think ANYONE WHO MANAGES PEOPLE should
consider:

1. The most valuable asset that any company has, is the people who work for
it. Without them, there is no company. Now, some of them are more valuable
(to the company - not as people; everyone has value as people...) than
others :-), but it should be the function of management to extend the very
capable ones and to grow the less valuable ones. The company should invest
in its people. That means delivering promised training, encouraging people
to do extra curricular studies, and generally supporting and helping people
who are trying to improve their skill base, and/or their personal growth.

2. Don't play favorites. (That doesn't mean "Treat them all with the same
contempt", either... :-))

3. Show respect and courtesy, if you would like to have it returned.

4. Show loyalty and support to your people if you would like that returned
also.

5. Communicate. When there are problems examine them openly and encourage
contributions from all. ('Communication' does not mean wasting everybody's
time with pointless talkfests or regularly scheduled meetings, so you can be
seen to be 'communicating'. Agree with the team when there is a need to
discuss something, and allow brainstorming and discussion for a fixed
period.
Meetings should have a pre-circulated agenda and (unlike some newsgroups
:-))
should not be allowed to stray off topic.

6. Do not be a 'control freak' requiring every minute of people's time to be
accounted for. Instead, set them clear, attainable, goals (rather than
tasks; a subtle but
vital difference) and help them to achieve the goals you have set. Clock
watching doesn't achieve anything except a prison camp mentality. Sometimes
people need to be 'off-site' (for reasonable periods... not hours at a time
unless by prior arrangement) to attend to personal business. As long as
goals are achieved, this should not be problematic. Courtesy requires that
absences are notified to somebody, so that everyone is accounted for.

7. Assume your people are responsible, trustworthy, adults and treat them
accordingly. If they fail at this, deal with it. Do not penalise the group
because
one person is inadequate.

8. 'Teambuilding' is an important management function and should not be
overlooked. If the company won't pay for pizza or a night out, do it
yourself.

9. Never ask anyone to do things you wouldn't do, and never do things that
they are not allowed to do.

10. Look for growth opportunities amongst your staff and make sure that each
individual knows
where they're going and is happy to be going there.

11. Give credit to people when they deserve it. Never allow anyone to take
credit for someone else's work or ideas, and don't ever present someone
else's work or ideas as your own.

12. Encourage people to come clean when they screw up. Foster a 'blame free'
culture. (This is predicated on everyone doing their best, as mentioned
elsewhere). Help them to recover. If you don't do this, you will foster an
environment where imagination is stifled and risks will not be taken. People
will work to the 'letter of the law' or policy, or spec. and never question
or think about it. While policies and specs. may be necessary, they need to
be understood, rather than followed by rote. And everybody needs to
recognise that the need to deliver a quality product, transcends a policy
written by someone some years ago, who was not privy to the current
situation, and could not have foreseen it. (If you authorise departure from
policy, make sure your manager knows what you are doing and understands why
it is necessary.)

13. Once you are confident that your team are responsible professionals,
delegate to them. Set the higher level goals and let them work out the lower
level ones. (provide input when needed, and monitor the deliverables.) Don't
'interfere' (unless you see a major problem with what they are doing), just
encourage and support them.

14. Minimise admin., paperwork and reporting. I like a weekly set of
oneliners under the headings: THIS WEEK (which goals were achieved and
deliverables are available), NEXT WEEK (what is planned for
delivery next week), and PROBLEMS. This last will usually say 'none' but
where they need help from me to get something approved or moved, or need
expert help, or people from the Business, or whatever, it will be stated
there. The manager's role is to facilitate and support; it isn't all about
control.

Here are some principles that I think ANYONE WHO IS BEING MANAGED should
consider...

SECTION 3.

(the pronouns 'him', 'he', and 'his' in the following, are intended to
represent 'Man' as Humankind, and not the masculine gender. Please read
'him/her', 'he/she' and 'his/her' if you are sensitive to such issues...)

1. Don't be judgemental about your manager. Treat him the way you would like
to be treated if you were doing his job. One day, you may be...(even if you
currently have no plans to... Fate (or maybe just the random nature of the
universe) has a way of landing us in situations we cannot always predict.)

2. Accept that your manager is not infallible, but grant him the right to
manage. If you seriously disagree with policies he is laying down, tell him
in private, explain why you think it is wrong, and suggest an alternative.
(See point 4 below). DON'T feel aggrieved if he doesn't take your advice.

3. Understand that he is being measured just as you are, and he may have
more to lose than you do...

4. Don't do things you know to be stupid. It conflicts with doing the best
you know how, and is unprofessional. I call this the 'Nuremburg' rule... If
he insists you do it, ask him politely for an email or memo requesting it,
and make it clear that, while you will do it because you have been told to,
you will take no responsibility for the outcome. File the paper and keep it.
Don't be afraid to do this. You have a right to protect your own integrity.
You may find that even though your manager doesn't like your resistance, he
will at least respect you for being up front...

5. Never brown nose your manager and never do things just to buy him off.
Both of these actions will lead to loss of respect and a bad outcome for all
concerned.

6. Do not denigrate your colleagues or your manager to anyone. Don't say
anything about anyone who is not present, that you would not be prepared to
say if they were present. Gossip is unprofessional, and best left to people
who have sad, empty, lives.

There is much more, but this post is already long enough...

I'll deal with specific responses in a separate post.

Pete.

From: on 16 Sep 2005 11:24

In article <NKsWe.57045$4i6.12135(a)tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
jce <defaultuser(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
><docdwarf(a)panix.com> wrote in message news:dg97us$km9$1(a)reader1.panix.com...
>> In article <oNUVe.485$jS.483(a)newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
>> Michael Mattias <michael.mattias(a)gte.net> wrote:

[snip]

>>>And just like being a programmer, the more of the required skills one has
>>>in
>>>his chosen discipline, the better that person will be at that task.
>>
>> Here I must disagree, having seen too much 'Look, Ma, I'm a Programmer!'
>> code. There are cases where the newbie, who does not know anything else,
>> will generate a solution similar to that of the oldbie, who has seen more
>> of the mistakes and knows to simplify; the journeyman... journeyperson...
>> mid-level skilled folks can, at times, induce unnecessary complexity.
>
>Actually - this is my complaint of the young people now [this is a huge
>generalization utilizing the 80-20 rule]. It's like they've been misguided
>into the belief that everything has a standard "pattern".

.... and don't git me started on what they're callin' 'music', neither!...
buncha durned noise, if ya ask me... mutter mutter mutter...

.... ahhhhhhh, for the Oldene Dayse!

[snip]

>>>Of course the 'value' of judgments will be seen differently by the manager
>>>and the technical professional.. the technical person's perspective is
>>>limited to the technical, whereas the manager's valuation is made
>>>considering the perspectives of sales, administration, finance, production
>>>and all the other functional areas of a company's business.
>>
>> ... and completely ignores who is getting the corner office, the company
>> car, the heavy-chested secretary and the bigger budget... and I am the
>> King of England, as well.
>
>Can I be honorary chair of Northern Ireland given that they have a better
>football team?

We don't know if We would be best serving Our loyal subjects by starting
one off as a full chair... perhaps a period of apprenticeship might be
served as a three-legged milking-stool.

DD

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