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From: Franc Zabkar on 9 Apr 2010 22:15
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd(a)gmail.com>
put finger to keyboard and composed:

>On Apr 8, 12:11�am, Franc Zabkar <fzab...(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote:

>> Is this the fallout from RoHS?
>
>Maybe not. There are other known culprits, like the drywall (gypsum
>board,
>sheetrock... whatever it's called in your region) that outgasses
>hydrogen
>sulphide. Some US construction of a few years ago is so bad with
>this
>toxic and corrosive gas emission that demolition of nearly-new
>construction
>is called for.
>
>Corrosion of nearby copper is one of the symptoms of the nasty
>product.

It's not just Russia that has this problem. The same issue comes up
frequently at the HDD Guru forums.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
From: Sergey Kubushyn on 10 Apr 2010 18:33
In sci.electronics.repair Franc Zabkar <fzabkar(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd(a)gmail.com>
> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>
>>On Apr 8, 12:11�am, Franc Zabkar <fzab...(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>
>>> Is this the fallout from RoHS?
>>
>>Maybe not. There are other known culprits, like the drywall (gypsum
>>board,
>>sheetrock... whatever it's called in your region) that outgasses
>>hydrogen
>>sulphide. Some US construction of a few years ago is so bad with
>>this
>>toxic and corrosive gas emission that demolition of nearly-new
>>construction
>>is called for.
>>
>>Corrosion of nearby copper is one of the symptoms of the nasty
>>product.
>
> It's not just Russia that has this problem. The same issue comes up
> frequently at the HDD Guru forums.

I'm right here in the US and I had 3 of 3 WD 1TB drives failed at the same
time in RAID1 thus making the entire array dead. It is not that you can
simply buff that dark stuff off and you're good to go. Drive itself tries to
recover from failures by rewriting service info (remapping etc.) but
connection is unreliable and it trashes the entire disk beyound repair. Then
you have that infamous "click of death"... BTW, it is not just WD; others
are also that bad.

They had good old gold plated male/female headers on older drives and those
were reliable. Newer drives had, sorry for an expression, "gold plated" pads
and springy contacts from the drive heads. That would have them something
like $0.001 saving per drive wrt those headers and they took that road. Gold
plating was also of a cheapest variety possible, probably immersion so it
wouldn't last long. Newest drives from Seagate also have that construction
but pads look like tin plated, no gold. Don't know how long it would last.

What we are looking at is an example of a brilliant design with a touch of
genius--it DOES last long enough so they work past their warranty period and
at the same time it will NOT last enough to make it work very long past the
manucturer's warranty. I don't know if it is just greed/incompetence or a
deliberate design feature but if it is the latter my kudos to their
engineers for job well done :(

---
******************************************************************
* KSI(a)home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************
From: Arno on 10 Apr 2010 21:43
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Sergey Kubushyn <ksi(a)koi8.net> wrote:
> In sci.electronics.repair Franc Zabkar <fzabkar(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd(a)gmail.com>
>> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>>
>>>On Apr 8, 12:11?am, Franc Zabkar <fzab...(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Is this the fallout from RoHS?
>>>
>>>Maybe not. There are other known culprits, like the drywall (gypsum
>>>board,
>>>sheetrock... whatever it's called in your region) that outgasses
>>>hydrogen
>>>sulphide. Some US construction of a few years ago is so bad with
>>>this
>>>toxic and corrosive gas emission that demolition of nearly-new
>>>construction
>>>is called for.
>>>
>>>Corrosion of nearby copper is one of the symptoms of the nasty
>>>product.
>>
>> It's not just Russia that has this problem. The same issue comes up
>> frequently at the HDD Guru forums.

> I'm right here in the US and I had 3 of 3 WD 1TB drives failed at the same
> time in RAID1 thus making the entire array dead. It is not that you can
> simply buff that dark stuff off and you're good to go. Drive itself tries to
> recover from failures by rewriting service info (remapping etc.) but
> connection is unreliable and it trashes the entire disk beyound repair. Then
> you have that infamous "click of death"... BTW, it is not just WD; others
> are also that bad.

It is extremly unlikely for a slow chemical process to achive this
level of syncronicity. About as unlikely that it would be fair to call
it impossible

Your array died from a different cause that would affect all drives
simultaneously, such as a power spike.

> They had good old gold plated male/female headers on older drives and those
> were reliable. Newer drives had, sorry for an expression, "gold plated" pads
> and springy contacts from the drive heads. That would have them something
> like $0.001 saving per drive wrt those headers and they took that road. Gold
> plating was also of a cheapest variety possible, probably immersion so it
> wouldn't last long. Newest drives from Seagate also have that construction
> but pads look like tin plated, no gold. Don't know how long it would last.

Tin lasts pretty long, unless you unplug/replug connectors. That is its
primary weakness.

> What we are looking at is an example of a brilliant design with a touch of
> genius--it DOES last long enough so they work past their warranty period and
> at the same time it will NOT last enough to make it work very long past the
> manucturer's warranty. I don't know if it is just greed/incompetence or a
> deliberate design feature but if it is the latter my kudos to their
> engineers for job well done :(

I think you are on the wrong trail here. Contact mechanics and
chemistry is well understood and has been studied longer than modern
electronics. So has metal plating technology in general.

Arno

> ---
> ******************************************************************
> * KSI(a)home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
> * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
> ******************************************************************

--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: arno(a)wagner.name
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans
From: Arno on 11 Apr 2010 12:10
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Jeff Liebermann <jeffl(a)cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 17:11:39 +1000, Franc Zabkar
> <fzabkar(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote:
[...]

> I've NEVER had a
> drive failure that was directly attributed to such contact corrosion.
> It's usually something else that kills the drive.

I think people are jumping to conclusion, because the discolorarion
is what they can see (and think they understand). There is a posting
in this thread with a person that has had a 3-way RAID1 fail and
attributes it to the contact discoloration. Now, whith a slow chemical
process, the required level of synchronicity is as unlikely that
calling it impossible is fair.

>>The thread has
>>several detailed photos. All except the older tinned PCB appear to
>>show evidence of serious corrosion.
>>
>>Is this the fallout from RoHS? Surely it's not the result of some cost
>>saving measure?

> Nope. If the contacts were tin-silver, 5% lead, or one of the other
> low lead alloys, the corrosion would probably be white or light gray
> in color. The dark black suggests there's at least some lead involved
> or possibly dissimilar contact material.

Actually pure silver also sulfidizes (?) in this way. The
look is very characteristic. I think this is silver plating
we see. It is typically not a problem on contacts that
are in use, it does not crawl between contact points.

I suspect in the observed instances, this is a purely
aestetic problem and has no impact on HDD performance
or reliability whatsoever.

Arno

--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: arno(a)wagner.name
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans
From: Sergey Kubushyn on 11 Apr 2010 21:55
In sci.electronics.repair Arno <me(a)privacy.net> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Sergey Kubushyn <ksi(a)koi8.net> wrote:
>> In sci.electronics.repair Franc Zabkar <fzabkar(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd(a)gmail.com>
>>> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>>>
>>>>On Apr 8, 12:11?am, Franc Zabkar <fzab...(a)iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Is this the fallout from RoHS?
>>>>
>>>>Maybe not. There are other known culprits, like the drywall (gypsum
>>>>board,
>>>>sheetrock... whatever it's called in your region) that outgasses
>>>>hydrogen
>>>>sulphide. Some US construction of a few years ago is so bad with
>>>>this
>>>>toxic and corrosive gas emission that demolition of nearly-new
>>>>construction
>>>>is called for.
>>>>
>>>>Corrosion of nearby copper is one of the symptoms of the nasty
>>>>product.
>>>
>>> It's not just Russia that has this problem. The same issue comes up
>>> frequently at the HDD Guru forums.
>
>> I'm right here in the US and I had 3 of 3 WD 1TB drives failed at the same
>> time in RAID1 thus making the entire array dead. It is not that you can
>> simply buff that dark stuff off and you're good to go. Drive itself tries to
>> recover from failures by rewriting service info (remapping etc.) but
>> connection is unreliable and it trashes the entire disk beyound repair. Then
>> you have that infamous "click of death"... BTW, it is not just WD; others
>> are also that bad.
>
> It is extremly unlikely for a slow chemical process to achive this
> level of syncronicity. About as unlikely that it would be fair to call
> it impossible
>
> Your array died from a different cause that would affect all drives
> simultaneously, such as a power spike.

Yes, they did not die from contacts oxidation at that very same moment. I
can not even tell they all died the same month--that array might've been
running in degraded mode with one drive dead, then after some time second
drive died but it was still running on one remaining drive. And only when
the last one crossed the Styx the entire array went dead. I don't use
Windows so my machines are never turned off unless there is a real need for
this. And they are rarely updated once they are up and running so there is
no reboots. Typical uptime is more than a year.

I don't know though how I could miss a degradation alert if there was any.

All 3 drives in the array simply failed to start after reboot. There were
some media errors reported before reboot but all drives somehow worked. Then
the system got rebooted and all 3 drives failed with the same "click of
death."

The mechanism here is not that oxidation itself killed the drives. It never
happens that way. It was a main cause of a failure, but drives actually
performed suicide like body immune system kills that body when overreacting
to some kind of hemorrargic fever or so.

The probable sequence is something like this:

- Drives run for a long time with majority of the files never
accessed so it doesn't matter if that part of the disk where they
are stored is bad or not

- When the system is rebooted RAID array assembly is performed

- While this assembly is being performed a number of sectors on a
drive found to be defective and drive tries to remap them

- Such action involves rewriting service information

- Read/write operations are unreliable because of failing head
contacts so the service areas become filled with garbage

- Once the vital service information is damaged the drive is
essentially dead because its controller can not read vital data to
even start the disk

- The only hope for the controller to recover is to repeat the read
in hope that it might somehow get read. This is that infamous
"click of death" sound when drive tries to read the info again and
again. There is no way it can recover because that data are
trashed.

- Drives do NOT fail while they run, the failure happens on the next
reboot. The damage that would kill the drives on that reboot
happened way before that reboot though.

That suicide also can happen when some old file that was not accessed for
ages is read. That attempt triggers the suicide chain.

>
>> They had good old gold plated male/female headers on older drives and those
>> were reliable. Newer drives had, sorry for an expression, "gold plated" pads
>> and springy contacts from the drive heads. That would have them something
>> like $0.001 saving per drive wrt those headers and they took that road. Gold
>> plating was also of a cheapest variety possible, probably immersion so it
>> wouldn't last long. Newest drives from Seagate also have that construction
>> but pads look like tin plated, no gold. Don't know how long it would last.
>
> Tin lasts pretty long, unless you unplug/replug connectors. That is its
> primary weakness.
>
>> What we are looking at is an example of a brilliant design with a touch of
>> genius--it DOES last long enough so they work past their warranty period and
>> at the same time it will NOT last enough to make it work very long past the
>> manucturer's warranty. I don't know if it is just greed/incompetence or a
>> deliberate design feature but if it is the latter my kudos to their
>> engineers for job well done :(
>
> I think you are on the wrong trail here. Contact mechanics and
> chemistry is well understood and has been studied longer than modern
> electronics. So has metal plating technology in general.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI(a)home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************
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