Why P&S's should do some reading before taking the plunge with real cameras
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From: Bruce on 31 May 2010 14:12 On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT), Rich <rander3127(a)gmail.com> wrote: >On May 31, 10:12�am, Bruce <docnews2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Sun, 30 May 2010 08:58:15 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3...(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >Perfect example. �Guy shoots a Panasonic GH1 hand-held at 1/3 sec and >> >f16 and wonders why his shots aren't sharp. �P&S's are weaned on >> >cameras that have infinite DOF and limited apertures (often don't >> >close down to lower than f6.3) so to them, the discipline needed to >> >shoot a DSLR or EVIL camera is alien. >> >> >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=35451698 >> >> I have been posting exactly this view - that P&S users will encounter >> focusing problems with Micro Four Thirds and larger sensors - for some >> weeks now. >> >> They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I >> thank you for your sincere flattery. �;-) > >Good thing though, the EVIL cameras have much less shutter slap and >are able to produce sharper images with extremely long lenses. The only camera I owned that had a problem with shutter slap was a Zenit B 35mm SLR, and that was back in 1973. I must give shutter slap some credit, though. It is a red herring that has been around for a great many years, but still appears fresh to some people. ;-)
From: Rich on 31 May 2010 20:53 Bruce <docnews2011(a)gmail.com> wrote in news:3su7069evkcm3kbkvaqriu3btr2s534ro1(a)4ax.com: > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT), Rich <rander3127(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >>On May 31, 10:12�am, Bruce <docnews2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 08:58:15 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3... @gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >Perfect example. �Guy shoots a Panasonic GH1 hand-held at 1/3 sec and >>> >f16 and wonders why his shots aren't sharp. �P&S's are weaned on >>> >cameras that have infinite DOF and limited apertures (often don't >>> >close down to lower than f6.3) so to them, the discipline needed to >>> >shoot a DSLR or EVIL camera is alien. >>> >>> >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message= 35451698 >>> >>> I have been posting exactly this view - that P&S users will encounter >>> focusing problems with Micro Four Thirds and larger sensors - for some >>> weeks now. >>> >>> They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I >>> thank you for your sincere flattery. �;-) >> >>Good thing though, the EVIL cameras have much less shutter slap and >>are able to produce sharper images with extremely long lenses. > > > The only camera I owned that had a problem with shutter slap was a > Zenit B 35mm SLR, and that was back in 1973. > > I must give shutter slap some credit, though. It is a red herring > that has been around for a great many years, but still appears fresh > to some people. ;-) > > Not a red herring. Shots with a D300 with mirror locked up showed 1/2 the sharpness of the Panasonic G1 when shooting through a 1000mm lens. With normal, even heavy duty tripods, damping out all motion with such a lens is nearly impossible and the Nikon's shutter had sufficient slap to induce motion that could not be controlled. Modern Photography did tests of film cameras for blur from vibration and they ended up having the lash them to a brick wall in order to control it, because some were just too jarring when fired. Trust me, I've used lenses past 4000mm in focal length.
From: Better Info on 31 May 2010 22:29 On Mon, 31 May 2010 19:12:14 +0100, Bruce <docnews2011(a)gmail.com> wrote: >On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT), Rich <rander3127(a)gmail.com> >wrote: > >>On May 31, 10:12�am, Bruce <docnews2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 08:58:15 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3...(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >Perfect example. �Guy shoots a Panasonic GH1 hand-held at 1/3 sec and >>> >f16 and wonders why his shots aren't sharp. �P&S's are weaned on >>> >cameras that have infinite DOF and limited apertures (often don't >>> >close down to lower than f6.3) so to them, the discipline needed to >>> >shoot a DSLR or EVIL camera is alien. >>> >>> >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=35451698 >>> >>> I have been posting exactly this view - that P&S users will encounter >>> focusing problems with Micro Four Thirds and larger sensors - for some >>> weeks now. >>> >>> They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I >>> thank you for your sincere flattery. �;-) >> >>Good thing though, the EVIL cameras have much less shutter slap and >>are able to produce sharper images with extremely long lenses. > > >The only camera I owned that had a problem with shutter slap was a >Zenit B 35mm SLR, and that was back in 1973. > >I must give shutter slap some credit, though. It is a red herring >that has been around for a great many years, but still appears fresh >to some people. ;-) Just because you've never measured the image degradation it causes in your own cameras bought today doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Others have measured it. It still exists, at all shutter speeds.
From: Bruce on 1 Jun 2010 05:34 On Mon, 31 May 2010 19:53:06 -0500, Rich <none(a)nowhere.com> wrote: >Bruce <docnews2011(a)gmail.com> wrote in >news:3su7069evkcm3kbkvaqriu3btr2s534ro1(a)4ax.com: > >> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT), Rich <rander3127(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>>On May 31, 10:12�am, Bruce <docnews2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 08:58:15 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3... >@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >Perfect example. �Guy shoots a Panasonic GH1 hand-held at 1/3 sec >and >>>> >f16 and wonders why his shots aren't sharp. �P&S's are weaned on >>>> >cameras that have infinite DOF and limited apertures (often don't >>>> >close down to lower than f6.3) so to them, the discipline needed to >>>> >shoot a DSLR or EVIL camera is alien. >>>> >>>> >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message= >35451698 >>>> >>>> I have been posting exactly this view - that P&S users will encounter >>>> focusing problems with Micro Four Thirds and larger sensors - for >some >>>> weeks now. >>>> >>>> They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I >>>> thank you for your sincere flattery. �;-) >>> >>>Good thing though, the EVIL cameras have much less shutter slap and >>>are able to produce sharper images with extremely long lenses. >> >> >> The only camera I owned that had a problem with shutter slap was a >> Zenit B 35mm SLR, and that was back in 1973. >> >> I must give shutter slap some credit, though. It is a red herring >> that has been around for a great many years, but still appears fresh >> to some people. ;-) >> >> > >Not a red herring. Shots with a D300 with mirror locked up showed 1/2 >the sharpness of the Panasonic G1 when shooting through a 1000mm lens. >With normal, even heavy duty tripods, damping out all motion with such a >lens is nearly impossible and the Nikon's shutter had sufficient slap to >induce motion that could not be controlled. >Modern Photography did tests of film cameras for blur from vibration and >they ended up having the lash them to a brick wall in order to control >it, because some were just too jarring when fired. Trust me, I've used >lenses past 4000mm in focal length. You want me to trust you? A bit of a stretch, I think .. Seriously, though, I accept that there might be a problem at longer focal lengths than I normally use. I rarely go beyond 300mm but I have just bought a 400mm lens so I will carefully monitor the results for shutter slap. Perhaps I will need a heavier tripod. ;-)
From: James Nagler on 1 Jun 2010 08:50
On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 08:17:06 -0400, John A. <john(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: >On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 10:34:23 +0100, Bruce <docnews2011(a)gmail.com> >wrote: > >>On Mon, 31 May 2010 19:53:06 -0500, Rich <none(a)nowhere.com> wrote: >> >>>Bruce <docnews2011(a)gmail.com> wrote in >>>news:3su7069evkcm3kbkvaqriu3btr2s534ro1(a)4ax.com: >>> >>>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT), Rich <rander3127(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 31, 10:12�am, Bruce <docnews2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 08:58:15 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3... >>>@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >Perfect example. �Guy shoots a Panasonic GH1 hand-held at 1/3 sec >>>and >>>>>> >f16 and wonders why his shots aren't sharp. �P&S's are weaned on >>>>>> >cameras that have infinite DOF and limited apertures (often don't >>>>>> >close down to lower than f6.3) so to them, the discipline needed to >>>>>> >shoot a DSLR or EVIL camera is alien. >>>>>> >>>>>> >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message= >>>35451698 >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been posting exactly this view - that P&S users will encounter >>>>>> focusing problems with Micro Four Thirds and larger sensors - for >>>some >>>>>> weeks now. >>>>>> >>>>>> They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I >>>>>> thank you for your sincere flattery. �;-) >>>>> >>>>>Good thing though, the EVIL cameras have much less shutter slap and >>>>>are able to produce sharper images with extremely long lenses. >>>> >>>> >>>> The only camera I owned that had a problem with shutter slap was a >>>> Zenit B 35mm SLR, and that was back in 1973. >>>> >>>> I must give shutter slap some credit, though. It is a red herring >>>> that has been around for a great many years, but still appears fresh >>>> to some people. ;-) >>>> >>>> >>> >>>Not a red herring. Shots with a D300 with mirror locked up showed 1/2 >>>the sharpness of the Panasonic G1 when shooting through a 1000mm lens. >>>With normal, even heavy duty tripods, damping out all motion with such a >>>lens is nearly impossible and the Nikon's shutter had sufficient slap to >>>induce motion that could not be controlled. >>>Modern Photography did tests of film cameras for blur from vibration and >>>they ended up having the lash them to a brick wall in order to control >>>it, because some were just too jarring when fired. Trust me, I've used >>>lenses past 4000mm in focal length. >> >> >>You want me to trust you? A bit of a stretch, I think .. >> >>Seriously, though, I accept that there might be a problem at longer >>focal lengths than I normally use. I rarely go beyond 300mm but I >>have just bought a 400mm lens so I will carefully monitor the results >>for shutter slap. Perhaps I will need a heavier tripod. ;-) > >You'd think the heavier lens would help, but maybe the greater moment >arm counters that. Depends on the lens, I guess. My 16" diameter (20" dia. OTA) reflector telescope weighs a total of 255 lbs. when completely set up. The cast-iron mount and counter-weights alone weighing in at about 150 lbs. of that. Yet I can lightly tap the telescope tube and it take about 20-40 seconds for the vibrations to completely dampen down. (The "tap test" is well known to amateur astronomers, anything under 60 seconds for vibrations to dampen down is considered "good".) It is a well balanced telescope, just a standard 9v battery is enough to power the tracking and go-to system (it is that well balanced). But at high magnifications (600x-1000x) even the slightest disturbance will set up visually obvious oscillations. The speed with which a mirror and shutter in a DSLR is moved is like sharply tapping that telescope tube. You can obtain Sorbothane� pads that can be placed under each foot of a tripod leg to help dampen vibrations more quickly (popular with astronomers) specifically designed for tripod use, but the initial movement will still impact short exposures. There's no free lunch with the mechanical contrivances in a dSLR. The only way to take a vibration-free image is by opening the shutter (securely mounted on a sturdy and dampened tripod) in a totally dark room and using an off-camera flash to expose your subject 30-60 seconds after you have opened the shutter. Off-camera flash is required because the firing of the flash itself imparts an impulse of motion. |