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From: HeyBub on 5 Aug 2010 09:53
Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> During the last few hundred years the criminal justice system has
> made major advances, but there are still criminals and much remains
> to be done.
> How we deal with crime reflects on all of us and it isn't just the
> criminals who need to examine their attitude. Society as a whole has
> to get over the need for punishment and revenge; it changes nothing.
>
> Pete.

You make some good points. I would point out, however, that "retribution" is
not an approved reason for punishment.

You're also correct that all punishment methodologies do not drive crime to
zero. The question is, however, what would the crime rate be if there were
no consequence for the perp? Or what would the crime rate be if the
penalties were changed?

Societies have been tinkering with crime and it's aftermath since Cain
killed Abel, mostly from the victim's perspective.

Just yesterday, a convicted federal judge petitioned the court for a
reduction in his prison sentence because he was subjected to unspeakable
horrors while confined to the Grey Bar Hotel (one of these psychologically
debilitating episodes was having to listen to the screams of fellow inmates
who were being raped).


From: Pete Dashwood on 5 Aug 2010 22:20
HeyBub wrote:
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>>
>> During the last few hundred years the criminal justice system has
>> made major advances, but there are still criminals and much remains
>> to be done.
>> How we deal with crime reflects on all of us and it isn't just the
>> criminals who need to examine their attitude. Society as a whole has
>> to get over the need for punishment and revenge; it changes nothing.
>>
>> Pete.
>
> You make some good points. I would point out, however, that
> "retribution" is not an approved reason for punishment.
>
> You're also correct that all punishment methodologies do not drive
> crime to zero. The question is, however, what would the crime rate be
> if there were no consequence for the perp? Or what would the crime
> rate be if the penalties were changed?
>
> Societies have been tinkering with crime and it's aftermath since Cain
> killed Abel, mostly from the victim's perspective.
>
> Just yesterday, a convicted federal judge petitioned the court for a
> reduction in his prison sentence because he was subjected to
> unspeakable horrors while confined to the Grey Bar Hotel (one of
> these psychologically debilitating episodes was having to listen to
> the screams of fellow inmates who were being raped).

As noted earlier, we, as a society are responsible for the state of the
prisons we run. If criminal acts are flagrantly committed in prisons, if
warders and guards are corrupt and turn a blind eye, then that has to be
addressed and we need mechanisms in place to address it.

It is ridiculous to expect to rehabilitate people if they are placed in an
institution that is less than exemplary. If prisons are allowed to
disintegrate into lawless hell-holes, there will be no progress.

You don't want to hear how I would solve this...:-)

I'd simply close down the worst of these institutions and execute the
inmates AND the guards and management who allowed it to become so bad. (This
would save law-abiding taxpayers a fortune...) The inmates, because they
were anti-social in the first place and preferred to remain so instead of
trying to get better, the guards and warders because they derelicted their
duty to provide an environment where people CAN get better, and failed to
set an example of righteous behaviour that could inspire others to do what's
right instead of what's easy.

Make it a policy that both staff and inmates are responsible for the state
of a prison. And if the result is an unacceptable state, terminate the lot
of them. :-)

(I realise this would probably result in not many people volunteering for
the Prison Service... :-) Might need to have a process whereby staff could
protest the policies being implemented or dissociate themselves on record
from certain practices which were not helping the goal of providing a
working crime-free environment where rehabilitation can occur. If there were
more whstle blowers it might be possible to arrest the decline before the
drastic actions I outlined were necessary. As long as warders and staff buy
into the idea that crime is OK there will never be progress in dealing with
crime. As long as guards turn a blind eye to illegal activity in jails there
will never be progress in dealing with crime.

Complement this with an affirmative program for prisons. Points for the
least number of riots and assaults, the least number of repeat offenders,
validation for prisoners achieving education, inter-prison sport programs,
and so on. Make prisons work to change minds. Reward positive behaviour by
prisoners with days off their sentence, positive behaviour by guards and
wardens (above and beyond what is expected) with paid holiday days. Run
role playing and dramatization groups where lessons can be learned about
behaviour, and other options explored rather than negative outcomes, without
preaching a religious message. )

Hey, maybe it wouldn't be so bad if I ruled the world, after all... :-)

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."


From: Pete Dashwood on 5 Aug 2010 22:45
HeyBub wrote:
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>>
>> During the last few hundred years the criminal justice system has
>> made major advances, but there are still criminals and much remains
>> to be done.
>> How we deal with crime reflects on all of us and it isn't just the
>> criminals who need to examine their attitude. Society as a whole has
>> to get over the need for punishment and revenge; it changes nothing.
>>
>> Pete.
>
> You make some good points. I would point out, however, that
> "retribution" is not an approved reason for punishment.
>

Whether it is "officially" or not, it certainly is in the minds of many
people.


> You're also correct that all punishment methodologies do not drive
> crime to zero. The question is, however, what would the crime rate be
> if there were no consequence for the perp? Or what would the crime
> rate be if the penalties were changed?

It depends on the "penalties". I'm not suggesting there should be no
consequences for crime. Far from it. I'm suggesting that the consequences
should not involve pointless punishment. Instead, the consequences should be
time consuming, require effort on the part of the perpetrator, but that
effort should be worthwhile for all concerned. In effect, they work off
their debt through positive action that helps the victims of their crime
come to terms with it (at least as far as is possible; some victims will
never recover from what was done to them) and helps them grow as people. The
final result is of value to the reformed criminal and to society as a whole.
There has still been damage done, but everything that could be done to
repair it has been and there will not be a recurrence. It is the best we can
hope for and I don't see punishment as being part of it.

>
> Societies have been tinkering with crime and it's aftermath since Cain
> killed Abel, mostly from the victim's perspective.

I think it's time we took a broader view. It should encompass the criminal,
the victim, the correctional facilities, and society as a whole.In
isolation, none of these can help lower the crime rate. Together, they
possibly can. It isn't just about lowering the crime rate either. It is also
about repairing as far as possible the damage already done.


>
> Just yesterday, a convicted federal judge petitioned the court for a
> reduction in his prison sentence because he was subjected to
> unspeakable horrors while confined to the Grey Bar Hotel (one of
> these psychologically debilitating episodes was having to listen to
> the screams of fellow inmates who were being raped).

I've covered this in a separate (less serious) post...

Pete.

--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."


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