Prev: eSATA port on Studio 1555?
Next: Inspiron 8600 CMOS Battery Replacement
From: BillW50 on 14 Jun 2010 21:55
In news:hv6773$n1$1(a)news.eternal-september.org,
BillW50 typed on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 16:31:26 -0500:
> My experience with USB mice and keyboards is that it isn't the BIOS
> that is the problem for the troublesome. But the devices themselves.
> As I seriously think if the device automatically resets themselves
> when the 5 volts gets reapplied, they always work. Those that
> doesn't, gets confused and the device acts dead until you remove the
> USB connection and reinsert. That is what I think is the problem
> anyway. As some devices never have a problem and some always has a
> problem. The big test is trying them on a KMV switch and if they
> fail, it is the device themselves.

I should add there was a second test. As some would work okay after the
above, but some would fail if the KMV switch was on a USB hub. Meaning
the output of the switch was on a hub (meaning keyboard, mouse, etc.).
Then some would fail after this second test. Those that passed both
tests were rock solid USB devices from all of my experiences. And nobody
should have a single problem with them under any other conditions.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows XP SP3


From: Ben Myers on 14 Jun 2010 22:20
On 6/14/2010 5:31 PM, BillW50 wrote:
> In
> news:45e17cec-23a0-4f61-8ad1-9ff4618de499(a)b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com,
> William R. Walsh typed on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:55:45 -0700 (PDT):
>> Hi!
>>
>>> I am so surprised that nobody questioned this statement.
>>
>> Well, if you're going to be pedantic about it...
>>
>> "Real keyboards plug into dedicated keyboard ports, and real computers
>> HAVE dedicated keyboard ports!"
>>
>> So there you go. Have fun. :-)
>
> I personally see no problems with USB keyboards and mice. No need for
> PS/2 style connectors. And I am personally glad there are less and less
> of them overtime.
>
> And I have some 10+ year old laptops that only has one PS/2 connector.
> Supposedly you can hook up a Y connector and then hook up both a PS/2
> keyboard and mouse. Although those Y connectors seemed pretty rare and
> are not that easy to fine when I was looking for one way back when.
> Maybe they are easier today, I don't know for sure.
>
> And didn't PS/2 ports use the polling method? If so, that is very
> inefficient method. And what is the difference between those one PS/2
> port laptops that you can plug into either a mouse or a keyboard or
> both. But desktop PS/2 ports were specialized and you could not use a
> mouse in the keyboard one or the other way around. Why was that?
>
>> The first IBM PC used a five-pin DIN keyboard connection, and the
>> later AT did as well. However, they were electrically different from
>> one another...a keyboard made for a PC/XT wouldn't work on an AT
>> unless it were to be rewired. (The difference may have gone deeper
>> than that, what with differing signalling methods and such, but I
>> don't recall.)
>>
>> Some keyboards had a switch that could be used to select between PC/XT
>> and AT modes of operation.
>
> Oh yes, I remember those now. I even had adapters to go from those to
> PS/2 now that I recall.
>
>> The AT connector was of course later morphed into the PS/2 connector
>> and as such, you can adapt from one connector type to the other. They
>> both carry the same signals.
>>
>> That five pin connector used on the PC/XT, AT and countless clones
>> also found use as an audio connector, typically on European stereo
>> equipment.
>
> Actually I believe everybody except American and Canadians audio
> equipment used them. Even my Marantz 4400 (quad) and Kenwood KX-1030
> from the late 70's had them too (both made in Japan and I actually
> picked them up in Japan too).
>
> At the time, the Elcaset was being released and I really liked them. I
> don't think they were ever sold in the US, but maybe just in Japan and
> maybe Europe. They were a cross between a tape deck and a cassette. I
> didn't buy one because I didn't think they would sell enough to make
> enough money off of. I guess I was right because they were not around
> for too long. But I really wished they made it because they were really
> good.
>
>>> Although the only problem I had with USB mice and keyboards
>>> were on machines so old now that the BIOS doesn't support them
>>> without a DOS driver.
>>
>> BIOS support might have been missing, but I actually suspect it was
>> kept off by default (and for the most part, it probably wouldn't have
>> worked with anything but the motherboard's built in USB ports--if it
>> had any that could be used).
>>
>> The USB 1.0 spec dictates that support for HID class devices is to be
>> provided. I'm sure that some hardware vendors felt they didn't have to
>> follow the spec, but it appears (based on personal experimentation
>> with crusty old hardware) that most did, even if you had to turn the
>> emulation on in the BIOS setup utility.
>
> My experience with USB mice and keyboards is that it isn't the BIOS that
> is the problem for the troublesome. But the devices themselves. As I
> seriously think if the device automatically resets themselves when the 5
> volts gets reapplied, they always work. Those that doesn't, gets
> confused and the device acts dead until you remove the USB connection
> and reinsert. That is what I think is the problem anyway. As some
> devices never have a problem and some always has a problem. The big test
> is trying them on a KMV switch and if they fail, it is the device
> themselves.
>
>>> Otherwise I find USB mice and keyboards to be far better than
>>> connecting up through the PS/2 ports. As PS/2 ports only supports
>>> only 100ma if I recall correctly.
>>
>> 500mA at 5 volts DC, same as USB. Frequently, you can get more. I've
>> pulled one amp's worth of current from some keyboard ports on laptops
>> and desktops alike--and never had a problem. Your mileage could well
>> vary. Sometimes you can do the same with USB.
>
> Well I don't doubt that you can pull an amp or more. But I am pretty
> sure the spec was either 50ma or 100ma. And some manufactures stuck to
> this. And mice and keyboards didn't normally have a problem with this.
> But before USB, some devices wanted to get power from the PS/2 port
> through a pass through connector. Now the problem started.
>
>>> And one little short and it takes out a surface mounted fuselink on
>>> the motherboard.
>>
>>> For USB devices, a short isn't a problem.
>>
>> That very much depends upon the hardware. Later PS/2 ports are usually
>> protected by a self-resetting 'polyfuse' or similar device, same as
>> the USB ports. Even so, an electrical short can be fatal to either. A
>> fuse won't always save your equipment.
>>
>> Earlier ones did use "real" fuses...sometimes even a replaceable AGC
>> fuse was to be found on the motherboard.
>
> Well I don't doubt it. But some used fuselinks soldered in. And many
> motherboards have been replaced because of this.
>
> Speaking about motherboards and BIOS. Ever try this trick to reprogram a
> corrupt BIOS?
>
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/39
>
>>> Worse, PS/2 ports were not standardized.
>>
>> Sure they were. You're talking more of a problem with an individual
>> device that didn't follow or respect the specification. (And yes, I'm
>> being pedantic now. :-) ) I'm pretty sure you'll find that the
>> electrical specifications are a standard. I don't know about nor have
>> I checked to be absolutely certain, but it seems that the spacing and
>> pitch for a PS/2 port are pretty well standardized across the systems
>> that have them, whether they are stacked or placed side-by-side.
>
> I dunno, many PS/2 ports wouldn't accept the PS/2 plug from this
> wireless keyboard/mouse device. Which is a real shame because it used IR
> instead of radio and works past 30 feet away. And I found it very handy
> to have around. And it wasn't the sockets that was a problem, but the
> hole in the cabinets that was usually too small.
>
>> You can find plenty of USB devices that violate standards as well--
>> cables with two type A connectors on them, devices that utilize more
>> power than they should, devices that won't work reliably with some USB
>> controllers...etc.
>>
>> William
>
> Yes this is also true. And USB slimline DVD drives and USB tuners are
> usually the worst for demanding far more than 500ma.
>

The problem with USB keyboard and mice is always software, either BIOS
or drivers. For instance, Windows XP contemplates its navel for a while
when first confronted with a USB mouse different than previously
connected. Very annoying. But then, Windows itself can be very
annoying, for all its perceived wonderment... Ben Myers
From: BillW50 on 14 Jun 2010 22:58
In news:hv6o1h$p54$1(a)news.eternal-september.org,
Ben Myers typed on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:20:33 -0400:
> The problem with USB keyboard and mice is always software, either BIOS
> or drivers. For instance, Windows XP contemplates its navel for a
> while when first confronted with a USB mouse different than previously
> connected. Very annoying. But then, Windows itself can be very
> annoying, for all its perceived wonderment... Ben Myers

Bull! I have proved this time and time again it is the devices
themselves. Any USB devices that can survive being switched from a KVM
switch on a USB hub are rock solid USB devices. If you have learned
otherwise, I sure want to test them.

You would think a KVM switch is the same as unplugging and reconnecting
an USB device. But at least the one I have doesn't work that way. And I
find it perfect for testing USB devices. It is a CompuCable USBMS2-AB if
you must know.

P.S. I was calling them KMV and I guess they are called KVM
(keyboard-video-mouse). Well whatever, KVM or KMV is the same thing to
me.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows XP SP3


From: Ben Myers on 15 Jun 2010 01:53
On 6/14/2010 10:58 PM, BillW50 wrote:
> In news:hv6o1h$p54$1(a)news.eternal-september.org,
> Ben Myers typed on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:20:33 -0400:
>> The problem with USB keyboard and mice is always software, either BIOS
>> or drivers. For instance, Windows XP contemplates its navel for a
>> while when first confronted with a USB mouse different than previously
>> connected. Very annoying. But then, Windows itself can be very
>> annoying, for all its perceived wonderment... Ben Myers
>
> Bull! I have proved this time and time again it is the devices
> themselves. Any USB devices that can survive being switched from a KVM
> switch on a USB hub are rock solid USB devices. If you have learned
> otherwise, I sure want to test them.
>
> You would think a KVM switch is the same as unplugging and reconnecting
> an USB device. But at least the one I have doesn't work that way. And I
> find it perfect for testing USB devices. It is a CompuCable USBMS2-AB if
> you must know.
>
> P.S. I was calling them KMV and I guess they are called KVM
> (keyboard-video-mouse). Well whatever, KVM or KMV is the same thing to
> me.
>

Okay! Last week, I took in a Dell Dimension 5100 (XP Media Edition)
that was plagued by something or other, cleaned up the mess inside, and
attached a white OEM Microsoft optical USB mouse. I booted it up and it
sat there with a frozen cursor until it finally figured out it had a USB
mouse. Took maybe 30 seconds. Same sort of delay happens time and
again with other systems I service here.

On the other hand, if I use a USB-PS/2 adapter and hook the mouse up to
a system with a PS/2 mouse port, never a delay. I don't like the
USB-PS/2 adapter, because it makes the system a little more complicated.
But it really does work better with no pregnant pauses while Windows
farts around with its USB mouse driver.

No KVMs (the industry standard term) involved, BTW... Ben Myers
From: Bob Villa on 15 Jun 2010 07:05
On Jun 15, 12:53 am, Ben Myers <ben_my...(a)charter.net> wrote:
> On 6/14/2010 10:58 PM, BillW50 wrote:
>
>
>
> > Innews:hv6o1h$p54$1(a)news.eternal-september.org,
> > Ben Myers typed on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:20:33 -0400:
> >> The problem with USB keyboard and mice is always software, either BIOS
> >> or drivers.  For instance, Windows XP contemplates its navel for a
> >> while when first confronted with a USB mouse different than previously
> >> connected.  Very annoying.  But then, Windows itself can be very
> >> annoying, for all its perceived wonderment... Ben Myers
>
> > Bull! I have proved this time and time again it is the devices
> > themselves. Any USB devices that can survive being switched from a KVM
> > switch on a USB hub are rock solid USB devices. If you have learned
> > otherwise, I sure want to test them.
>
> > You would think a KVM switch is the same as unplugging and reconnecting
> > an USB device. But at least the one I have doesn't work that way. And I
> > find it perfect for testing USB devices. It is a CompuCable USBMS2-AB if
> > you must know.
>
> > P.S. I was calling them KMV and I guess they are called KVM
> > (keyboard-video-mouse). Well whatever, KVM or KMV is the same thing to
> > me.
>
> Okay!  Last week, I took in a Dell Dimension 5100 (XP Media Edition)
> that was plagued by something or other, cleaned up the mess inside, and
> attached a white OEM Microsoft optical USB mouse.  I booted it up and it
> sat there with a frozen cursor until it finally figured out it had a USB
> mouse.  Took maybe 30 seconds.  Same sort of delay happens time and
> again with other systems I service here.
>
> On the other hand, if I use a USB-PS/2 adapter and hook the mouse up to
> a system with a PS/2 mouse port, never a delay.  I don't like the
> USB-PS/2 adapter, because it makes the system a little more complicated.
>   But it really does work better with no pregnant pauses while Windows
> farts around with its USB mouse driver.
>
> No KVMs (the industry standard term) involved, BTW... Ben Myers

Ben, I know you have the last word on this...even though reality
dictates otherwise!

bob
First  |  Prev  | 
Pages: 1 2 3
Prev: eSATA port on Studio 1555?
Next: Inspiron 8600 CMOS Battery Replacement