From: mayayana on
> > At the other extreme,
> > VBScript can do a remarkable range of things,
> > taking advantage of COM components and providing
> > a GUI through HTAs. That might be more than
> > adequate for many people. Maybe the best help
> > would just be to help your friends navigate the
> > confusing landscape so that they can discover what
> > really appeals to them.
>
> Ewww... If your going to suggest a scripting language, how 'bout something
a
> little more modern and cross platform - such as Python. It can do all of
> that, and more.
>

Ewww? The question was about a form of
Basic where code could be shared for writing
on Windows. VBS is very similar to VB and very
COM-friendly. And it's well-suited to automating
IE, MS Word, etc. In that sense it's very handy
for "power users" who may not want to get into
programming.

>
> .NET provides a lot of prebuilt classes - no doubt. But, how does that
> shelter you from knowing how windows works? The framework provides a lot
of
> basics, but you quickly have to move outside the framework for more
advanced
> stuff.
>

Hmm. Quickly? One wonders what the framework
is for -- that 88 MB of bloat that .Net software wants
to dump onto a system -- if it "quickly" becomes
inadequate. (But I already know the DotNettiac
answer to that: "These days 88 MB is nothing. And
hard disks are cheaper than ever!" )


From: Tom Shelton on
On 2009-01-13, mayayana <mayaXXyana(a)rcXXn.com> wrote:
>> > At the other extreme,
>> > VBScript can do a remarkable range of things,
>> > taking advantage of COM components and providing
>> > a GUI through HTAs. That might be more than
>> > adequate for many people. Maybe the best help
>> > would just be to help your friends navigate the
>> > confusing landscape so that they can discover what
>> > really appeals to them.
>>
>> Ewww... If your going to suggest a scripting language, how 'bout something
> a
>> little more modern and cross platform - such as Python. It can do all of
>> that, and more.
>>
>
> Ewww? The question was about a form of
> Basic where code could be shared for writing
> on Windows.

Hmmm... Since the OP mentioned Delphi in his list, it seems kind of implied
that a response not be a form of BASIC.

> VBS is very similar to VB and very
> COM-friendly.

Yes - it is similar to VB, I'll give you that. But, you can use com objects
from Python as well.

> And it's well-suited to automating
> IE, MS Word, etc. In that sense it's very handy
> for "power users" who may not want to get into
> programming.
>

So, is Python.

>>
>> .NET provides a lot of prebuilt classes - no doubt. But, how does that
>> shelter you from knowing how windows works? The framework provides a lot
> of
>> basics, but you quickly have to move outside the framework for more
> advanced
>> stuff.
>>
>
> Hmm. Quickly?
> One wonders what the framework is for

You see I said for advanced stuff right? No framework can be all things to
all people. Though, the framework does take care of a lot of plumbing - so
even when you have to step out, it's still easier and far superior to the
mechanisms provided by VB.CLASSIC - or did you miss the part of my post where
I enumerated a few of advanced api calling capabilities of .NET vs VB.CLASSIC?

> -- that 88 MB of bloat that .Net software wants
> to dump onto a system -- if it "quickly" becomes
> inadequate. (But I already know the DotNettiac
> answer to that: "These days 88 MB is nothing. And
> hard disks are cheaper than ever!" )

Well, on most modern machines that is exactly true - especially as you add
more applications because that disk cost is then amoratized over the number of
applications using it. Beyond that, you apparently haven't heard of this:

http://windowsclient.net/wpf/wpf35/wpf-intro-client-profile.aspx
--
Tom Shelton
From: Schmidt on

"mayayana" <mayaXXyana(a)rcXXn.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:%23TGS%23radJHA.5412(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> > In 2010 also the Wine-support should be even more
> > matured, so you should be able to run nearly everything
> > which currently works on your Win98-install without
> > problems directly on Linux, without any VMs (since
> > I know, you don't like them ;-)).
> >
>
> Woops. I guess it means that one has become a curmudgeon
> when others know all of one's complaints without needing
> to voice them. :)
<g>

> Two years ago I installed Suse10 ...
Then you've started with the "worst distro" of this time.
(Suse 10 was admittedly a really bad release, known
even in the Suse-community - e.g. the new OpenSuse
releases are back to old "quality-standards" now).

> ... But I'll try to keep an open mind and try a new Linux
> update one of these days. My tests with Wine 2 years
> ago were promising. Nothing ran perfectly, but most
> things ran "usably".
Two years are a long time in IT - and especially in the
fast moving OpenSource-scene (at least in the prospering
projects as the Linux-Kernel and also Wine, which both
have constantly increasing "commit-counts").

I'd recommend (since you are a developer) a Debian-
based Distro (as e.g. my favourite one: Sidux.com) - or
if you want an even larger community- or forum-activity,
then there's of course Ubuntu (also Debian-based, both
Distros offer one of the nicest packet-managers for
software-updates/upgrades over internet, including
kernel-replacements without any problems by a
simple commandline-tool, called 'apt').

Olaf


From: mayayana on
Thanks for that info. I guess it is about
time that I take another look at Linux.


> > > In 2010 also the Wine-support should be even more
> > > matured, so you should be able to run nearly everything
> > > which currently works on your Win98-install without
> > > problems directly on Linux, without any VMs (since
> > > I know, you don't like them ;-)).
> > >
> >
> > Woops. I guess it means that one has become a curmudgeon
> > when others know all of one's complaints without needing
> > to voice them. :)
> <g>
>
> > Two years ago I installed Suse10 ...
> Then you've started with the "worst distro" of this time.
> (Suse 10 was admittedly a really bad release, known
> even in the Suse-community - e.g. the new OpenSuse
> releases are back to old "quality-standards" now).
>
> > ... But I'll try to keep an open mind and try a new Linux
> > update one of these days. My tests with Wine 2 years
> > ago were promising. Nothing ran perfectly, but most
> > things ran "usably".
> Two years are a long time in IT - and especially in the
> fast moving OpenSource-scene (at least in the prospering
> projects as the Linux-Kernel and also Wine, which both
> have constantly increasing "commit-counts").
>
> I'd recommend (since you are a developer) a Debian-
> based Distro (as e.g. my favourite one: Sidux.com) - or
> if you want an even larger community- or forum-activity,
> then there's of course Ubuntu (also Debian-based, both
> Distros offer one of the nicest packet-managers for
> software-updates/upgrades over internet, including
> kernel-replacements without any problems by a
> simple commandline-tool, called 'apt').
>
> Olaf
>
>


From: Schmidt on

"Tom Shelton" <tom_shelton(a)comcastXXXXXXX.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:%23iBJyjadJHA.4492(a)TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> Ewww... If your going to suggest a scripting language,
> how 'bout something a little more modern and cross
> platform - such as Python. It can do all of that,
> and more.
Yep, that's a nice suggestion, although the syntax is -
well ... not VB-compatible <g>.

> > I don't think any other "RAD" tool has that ability,
> > other than VC6.

> But, can't take advantage of 64-bit multicore processors.
VB6 can take advantage of multicore-processors of course
- possible with pretty simple ActiveX-Exe-Threading.

And regarding the 64Bit - as long as your selfwritten
VB-Apps don't need more than 3GByte RAM for
themselfes - they should work without problems
not only on 64Bit-Processors which "drive" a 32Bit-
OS (which nowadays is often the default yet), but also
on 64Bit-processors which drive a 64Bit-OS (over
the appropriate 64-32Bit-layers, which of course also
allow 32Bit-threading from within 32Bit-processes,
so the use of "64Bit-MultiCores" is no problem).

> VB.CLASSIC has an increasingly limited lifespan...
> At least in the enterprise.
Maybe in the real large ones - in the many smaller firms
I see a much longer lifespan for the typical "VB6-branch-
solutions".

> And for the record - VB.NET (actually .NET in general)
> provides even better support, and you can actually call
> 64-bit api's as well.
Why would I want to call a 64Bit-API from my 32Bit-
Application, if the 32Bit-API-pendant does the same? ;-)

> Don't believe me? I can name a number of things that
> .NET makes easier when dealing with native calls:
>
> 1. Direct support for Unicode API's.
To change a "Byval As String" to "Byval As Long" in the
API-Declaration is really not a big deal - and then there
are Typelibs for direct support of the W-Functions, without
the need to use StrPtr(SomeString) in the Call, W-APIs
in a Typelib support direct BString-Passing (avoiding
VBs indirect ANSI-Conversion-automatisms).

> 2. Direct support for calling functions that use Unions
IIRC this should also be doable with appropriate
TypeLib-Defines.

> 3. Direct support for both __stdcall and __cdecl calling
> conventions
Ok, here you got me - until now I've not figured out,
how to enable that in a VB-Typelib-Declaration.
But C(++)-recompiling (at least the interesting enough
OpenSource-Libs) with a StdCall-Convention
is not a big deal.

> 4. Support for overloading function calls.
Yep - that's nice - but Optional Params do well for me
so far.

> And what about subclassing a win proc?
> In .NET it's safe and supported in the IDE.
IIRC on PSC there are tools, which support IDE-safe
subclassing for VB6 in the meantime - if encapsulated in
a little AX-Dll, then their usage should be even more easy.

> Especially when it comes to more advanced techniques as
> multi-threading, etc.
Oh c'mon Tom - not again these threading-topics - thought
we had already discussed this - e.g. P. Clement has not shown
until now a .NET-example which does the same as this VB6-one.
www.datenhaus.de/Downloads/MandelbrotThreaded.zip

And IIRC, you have participated in the appropriate thread
some month's ago too.

Olaf