Computer won't boot
in [Hardware]
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From: Wyman on 11 May 2010 23:26 Hi all - I'm trying to help some friends fixed their computer. They have a Gateway 816gm running WinXP. The issue they were having was that the computer would just shut completely down for no reason if they were using it and then stopped period. I pre-diagnosed this as maybe a power supply, motherboard, or graphics card issue. So they brought the computer over and it wouldn't boot up at all. All the fans(power supply, g/c, and processor) came after pressing the power. However, I did not hear the hard drives or the dvd burner spinning. The hard drive LED light on the front was a yellowish color. We bought a new power supply and tried it with the same results. I also switched video cards and changed the hard drive cable and got the same results. I'm now here looking for assistance. My next guess would be the motherboard that's causing the problem. Is there a way to test this? Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Wyman
From: Paul on 12 May 2010 00:57 Wyman wrote: > Hi all - > > I'm trying to help some friends fixed their computer. They have a Gateway > 816gm running WinXP. The issue they were having was that the computer would > just shut completely down for no reason if they were using it and then > stopped period. I pre-diagnosed this as maybe a power supply, motherboard, > or graphics card issue. So they brought the computer over and it wouldn't > boot up at all. All the fans(power supply, g/c, and processor) came after > pressing the power. However, I did not hear the hard drives or the dvd > burner spinning. The hard drive LED light on the front was a yellowish > color. > > We bought a new power supply and tried it with the same results. I also > switched video cards and changed the hard drive cable and got the same > results. I'm now here looking for assistance. My next guess would be the > motherboard that's causing the problem. Is there a way to test this? > > Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Wyman > An overheating CPU can cause the box to shut down (THERMTRIP). An overheating or overloaded power supply can also shut down and latch off. In cases like that, it may require toggling the main power switch on the back, before the computer will respond to the power button again. Your test result tells you the power supply is not completely dead. You've proved the logic path from the power switch to the PSU works. You don't have measured values for all the supply rails, so there could still be something wrong there. I recommend reducing the hardware plugged into the computer, and doing some "beep tests". When I suggest these, my assumption is the computer case either has a speaker or a black piezo disk on the motherboard, that beeps on errors. If you remove the RAM and/or video card, that should cause the computer to beep. (Always add or remove components, with all power removed from the computer. Pull the cord to be sure.) And the beep pattern requires a working processor. If you can get some beeping, then it could be one of the items you just removed from the computer, was dragging it down. If it won't beep with RAM and video missing, and drives disconnected, you're down to processor, motherboard, power supply, BIOS flash chip and so on. Make sure the processor 2x2 ATX12V power cable is connected. The power cables have latches on them, and their purpose is to prevent the connector from "walking out" of its mate. A loose connector, can actually have the pins burn on it. Pull the power connectors and verify they're shiny and not blackened. I've had one Molex 1x4 burn here, so it does happen. In my case, the advanced warning was the fact that the cable I was using, never seemed to fit right, and always required fiddling to get it seated. You don't mention the results of any visual inspection. Your very first step, is to look for leaking capacitors, as the capacitor plague from years past, involved millions of bad capacitors. More info here on what to look for. Some Dells were pretty hard hit on certain model numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague Split pressure-relief seams: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Badcaps-tayeh-4.jpg Rust colored deposits: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/PSU_Caps.jpg I lost a power supply, and it had the rust colored stuff on four caps. It used to "sizzle" at startup, and after it warmed up for a minute, might be OK for the rest of the day. Fortunately, I stopped using it before it had a chance to blow up or ruin stuff. (The funny thing was, the power supply was used very little. The capacitor plague, doesn't require stress to accelerate failure. They can fail on their own, without help.) Bad caps can cause collateral damage. When a cap fails short circuit, it upsets devices driving it, and they can get burned too. By that time, you should be smelling something... Paul
From: Wyman G. on 12 May 2010 09:11 "Paul" wrote: > Wyman wrote: > > Hi all - > > > > I'm trying to help some friends fixed their computer. They have a Gateway > > 816gm running WinXP. The issue they were having was that the computer would > > just shut completely down for no reason if they were using it and then > > stopped period. I pre-diagnosed this as maybe a power supply, motherboard, > > or graphics card issue. So they brought the computer over and it wouldn't > > boot up at all. All the fans(power supply, g/c, and processor) came after > > pressing the power. However, I did not hear the hard drives or the dvd > > burner spinning. The hard drive LED light on the front was a yellowish > > color. > > > > We bought a new power supply and tried it with the same results. I also > > switched video cards and changed the hard drive cable and got the same > > results. I'm now here looking for assistance. My next guess would be the > > motherboard that's causing the problem. Is there a way to test this? > > > > Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Wyman > > > > An overheating CPU can cause the box to shut down (THERMTRIP). > An overheating or overloaded power supply can also shut down and > latch off. In cases like that, it may require toggling the main > power switch on the back, before the computer will respond to > the power button again. > > Your test result tells you the power supply is not completely dead. > You've proved the logic path from the power switch to the PSU works. > You don't have measured values for all the supply rails, so there > could still be something wrong there. > > I recommend reducing the hardware plugged into the computer, > and doing some "beep tests". When I suggest these, my assumption > is the computer case either has a speaker or a black piezo disk on > the motherboard, that beeps on errors. > > If you remove the RAM and/or video card, that should cause the > computer to beep. (Always add or remove components, with all > power removed from the computer. Pull the cord to be sure.) > And the beep pattern requires a working processor. If you can > get some beeping, then it could be one of the items you just > removed from the computer, was dragging it down. > > If it won't beep with RAM and video missing, and drives disconnected, > you're down to processor, motherboard, power supply, BIOS flash > chip and so on. Make sure the processor 2x2 ATX12V power cable > is connected. The power cables have latches on them, and their > purpose is to prevent the connector from "walking out" of its > mate. A loose connector, can actually have the pins burn on it. > Pull the power connectors and verify they're shiny and not > blackened. I've had one Molex 1x4 burn here, so it does happen. > In my case, the advanced warning was the fact that the cable > I was using, never seemed to fit right, and always required > fiddling to get it seated. > > You don't mention the results of any visual inspection. Your > very first step, is to look for leaking capacitors, as the > capacitor plague from years past, involved millions of bad > capacitors. More info here on what to look for. Some Dells > were pretty hard hit on certain model numbers. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague > > Split pressure-relief seams: > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Badcaps-tayeh-4.jpg > > Rust colored deposits: > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/PSU_Caps.jpg > > I lost a power supply, and it had the rust colored stuff on > four caps. It used to "sizzle" at startup, and after it > warmed up for a minute, might be OK for the rest of the day. > Fortunately, I stopped using it before it had a chance to > blow up or ruin stuff. (The funny thing was, the power > supply was used very little. The capacitor plague, doesn't > require stress to accelerate failure. They can fail on > their own, without help.) > > Bad caps can cause collateral damage. When a cap fails short > circuit, it upsets devices driving it, and they can get burned > too. By that time, you should be smelling something... > > Paul > . > Hi Paul - Thanks for your reply. The power supply in the machine is brand new and just purchased on Monday. I did plug in speakers to see if I could hear any beeps without having the hard drive plugged in but didn't hear anything. I'll try it without the video card and ram to see if there are any beeps. Wyman
From: Wyman on 12 May 2010 21:41 Hi again Paul - I did a beep test with the ram, video card, and hard drives removed and there were no beeps. And yes the speakers were on. So do you think it's a motherboard issue given that the power supply is brand new? The motherboard is a MS-6741 version 1. Here's a link to it: http://us.msi.com/index.php?func=proddesc&maincat_no=1&prod_no=601# Is there another motherboard similar to this one where they could get at Best Buy or other electronics store? I've found a couple of online stores that have this model but I'm concerned about their return policies. Thanks again for your help. Wyman "Paul" <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote in message news:hsdcfj$6at$1(a)speranza.aioe.org... > Wyman wrote: >> Hi all - >> >> I'm trying to help some friends fixed their computer. They have a >> Gateway 816gm running WinXP. The issue they were having was that the >> computer would just shut completely down for no reason if they were using >> it and then stopped period. I pre-diagnosed this as maybe a power >> supply, motherboard, or graphics card issue. So they brought the >> computer over and it wouldn't boot up at all. All the fans(power supply, >> g/c, and processor) came after pressing the power. However, I did not >> hear the hard drives or the dvd burner spinning. The hard drive LED >> light on the front was a yellowish color. >> >> We bought a new power supply and tried it with the same results. I also >> switched video cards and changed the hard drive cable and got the same >> results. I'm now here looking for assistance. My next guess would be >> the motherboard that's causing the problem. Is there a way to test this? >> >> Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Wyman >> > > An overheating CPU can cause the box to shut down (THERMTRIP). > An overheating or overloaded power supply can also shut down and > latch off. In cases like that, it may require toggling the main > power switch on the back, before the computer will respond to > the power button again. > > Your test result tells you the power supply is not completely dead. > You've proved the logic path from the power switch to the PSU works. > You don't have measured values for all the supply rails, so there > could still be something wrong there. > > I recommend reducing the hardware plugged into the computer, > and doing some "beep tests". When I suggest these, my assumption > is the computer case either has a speaker or a black piezo disk on > the motherboard, that beeps on errors. > > If you remove the RAM and/or video card, that should cause the > computer to beep. (Always add or remove components, with all > power removed from the computer. Pull the cord to be sure.) > And the beep pattern requires a working processor. If you can > get some beeping, then it could be one of the items you just > removed from the computer, was dragging it down. > > If it won't beep with RAM and video missing, and drives disconnected, > you're down to processor, motherboard, power supply, BIOS flash > chip and so on. Make sure the processor 2x2 ATX12V power cable > is connected. The power cables have latches on them, and their > purpose is to prevent the connector from "walking out" of its > mate. A loose connector, can actually have the pins burn on it. > Pull the power connectors and verify they're shiny and not > blackened. I've had one Molex 1x4 burn here, so it does happen. > In my case, the advanced warning was the fact that the cable > I was using, never seemed to fit right, and always required > fiddling to get it seated. > > You don't mention the results of any visual inspection. Your > very first step, is to look for leaking capacitors, as the > capacitor plague from years past, involved millions of bad > capacitors. More info here on what to look for. Some Dells > were pretty hard hit on certain model numbers. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague > > Split pressure-relief seams: > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Badcaps-tayeh-4.jpg > > Rust colored deposits: > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/PSU_Caps.jpg > > I lost a power supply, and it had the rust colored stuff on > four caps. It used to "sizzle" at startup, and after it > warmed up for a minute, might be OK for the rest of the day. > Fortunately, I stopped using it before it had a chance to > blow up or ruin stuff. (The funny thing was, the power > supply was used very little. The capacitor plague, doesn't > require stress to accelerate failure. They can fail on > their own, without help.) > > Bad caps can cause collateral damage. When a cap fails short > circuit, it upsets devices driving it, and they can get burned > too. By that time, you should be smelling something... > > Paul
From: Paul on 12 May 2010 22:48
Wyman wrote: > Hi again Paul - > > I did a beep test with the ram, video card, and hard drives removed and > there were no beeps. And yes the speakers were on. > > So do you think it's a motherboard issue given that the power supply is > brand new? The motherboard is a MS-6741 version 1. > Here's a link to it: > http://us.msi.com/index.php?func=proddesc&maincat_no=1&prod_no=601# > > Is there another motherboard similar to this one where they could get at > Best Buy or other electronics store? I've found a couple of online stores > that have this model but I'm concerned about their return policies. > > Thanks again for your help. > > Wyman In the picture, I think I see an onboard piezo speaker, right below the two yellow (IDE?) connectors. Your beeps might be expected to come from there. http://us.msi.com/uploads/prod_890a5cd5c9a3d19d42ade9c9c015a97a.jpg http://www.msi.com/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=601&maincat_no=1&cat2_no=171&cat3_no=7 K8M800 / VT8237 / S754 The manual shows connector JFP1 has pins for "SPKR" on pins numbered 2 and 8. That is a span of four pins on 0.1" centers. The computer case itself, may have a speaker mounted inside it, with that four pin connector leading to it. The four pin connector might use the two outside pins, for the speaker wires. If you don't have that black piezo disc, then connect up the computer case speaker. The computer case speaker, is a different speaker than the external amplified stereo speakers you might be using. http://download2.msi.com/files/downloads/mnu_exe/E6741v1.1.zip I don't know if the motherboard can drive both of those at the same time, or whether the motherboard has that piezo element (black in color, about the size of a quarter) as an option. Maybe if the board is sold as an OEM motherboard, as part of a pre-built computer, they install the piezo speaker on it. In any case, for a beep test, you either need a working piezo thing, or a working computer case speaker for the PC Beep. I presume you used to hear a single "beep" at system startup, so should have some idea if the machine used to beep while it was still functional. With the RAM missing, you should get a different, repeating beep pattern. The purpose of the "beep" test, is to prove a minimal set of the motherboard is functional. With no RAM installed, disks disconnected, you can check for the beeps. If you hear them, your processor managed to read BIOS code, do a memory test, and find the memory missing. To generate the beep, the hardware path to the chipset has to work. Same goes for reading the BIOS firmware - that won't work unless a significant amount of the board is working. A PCI Port 80 POST card, can also be used as a "proof of life" test, but those cost money, whereas the beep test only needs some kind of speaker you might already have. I still think you should do a visual check for leaking caps. If all the tops are shiny and flat, with no broken seams, then all is fine in that regard. Paul |