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From: Alistair on 18 Apr 2007 09:04
On 16 Apr, 20:00, Howard Brazee <how...(a)brazee.net> wrote:
> On 14 Apr 2007 13:42:36 -0700, "Alistair"
>
> <alist...(a)ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Thanks Pete, a good response. I think that a problem with management
> >is that we all think that we can do better if only we were in their
> >shoes.
>
> I doubt it. Think of sports stars. The stands are full of people
> criticizing the quarterback - people who know that there's no way they
> would survive on the field.
>
> >The reality is that we would probably be worse at management
> >than those we criticise. I know from having had disagreements with
> >managers in the past that there often is much that they see that we do
> >not know of, at the coalface, and I have certainly been grateful for
> >their shields from time to time.
>
> Even if I had the competence (which I don't) - I once had to fire
> somebody. That was once too often, I won't be in that position
> again.

I was once instrumental in initiating the process by which someone I
worked with got fired (and I had the final decision). I don't regret
it, but I do regret being the corner office idiot who hired the chump
in the first place!

From: Alistair on 18 Apr 2007 09:11
On 17 Apr, 02:04, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:
> <docdw...(a)panix.com> wrote in messagenews:f00urm$jjt$1(a)reader2.panix.com...
> > In article <2qh7231fi9tlotbqmdi3afv7ue7fsn2...(a)4ax.com>,
> > Howard Brazee <how...(a)brazee.net> wrote:
> >>On 14 Apr 2007 13:42:36 -0700, "Alistair"
> >><alist...(a)ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> >>>The reality is that we would probably be worse at management
> >>>than those we criticise. I know from having had disagreements with
> >>>managers in the past that there often is much that they see that we do
> >>>not know of, at the coalface, and I have certainly been grateful for
> >>>their shields from time to time.
>
> >>Even if I had the competence (which I don't) - I once had to fire
> >>somebody. That was once too often, I won't be in that position
> >>again.
>
> > I am reminded of a tale, perhaps apochryphal: in a class at Harvard a
> > professor gave an example to a roomful of MBA candidates, a conflict
> > between a line-worker and a supervisor. One student said that the
> > line-worker should be fired... after all, anyone can work an
> > assembley-line but a good supervisor is hard to find.
>
> > The professor left the lectern, stood in front of the student and declaime
> > that this was the *stupidest* thing he'd heard in all his years of
> > teaching and that he would not tolerate someone capable of generating this
> > kind of nonsense in his class... and the student was to get out, *now*.
>
> > The student (and the rest of the class) sat, dumbfounded... and the
> > professor then swept the books and papers (this was in the Oldene Dayse,
> > before students had computers) on to the floor and shouted 'GET OUT OF MY
> > CLASS, *NOW*!!!'
>
> > The student gathered his stuff and left the room... and then, when the
> > professor had returned to the lectern and resumed the class, crept back in
> > the door and sat in the last row.
>
> > The professor then stopped the discussion and called out 'So, Mr Jones...
> > tell us all what it is like to be fired.'
>
> > DD
>
> One week, in 1969, I was fired from my programming job (I had, in all
> innocence, done something that caused my manager to lose his annual
> increment :-) It was political, not technical, but being young at the time I
> did not have the broader vision I now enjoy. I can say that had he not lied
> and prevaricated in the first place, the situation could not have arisen.)
>
> Not only did he fire me, he promised I would never work again. "Your
> programming career is over."
>
> (In those days the City of Auckland had less than half a million people and
> there were no more than 20 IBM mainframe sites within a 15 mile radius of
> the city centre. It was a small IT community. He went to the IBM User Group
> and told those there assembled that he had fired me for disgraceful and
> unethical conduct and would strongly recommend no-one else ever employ me.)
>
> To say that this guy was a vindictive tyrant might be construed as sour
> grapes on my part, so I won't say that... :-)
>
> I remember how it felt. I went home to find my wife packing; she had decided
> to leave me. (In retrospect, I don't really blame her, but that's another
> story... :-) Obviously, she didn't know I had been fired so that didn't
> figure in her decision. Because we both worked she owned half of the car and
> I couldn't afford to stay in our flat without her contribution, so within a
> couple of days of finding myself alone and unemployable, I also had no
> transport and nowhere to live... :-) (Yeah, I can laugh now, but it wasn't
> funny then.... :-))
>
> The point is, I have never forgotten how that felt, and would think long and
> carefully before imposing it on someone else. (And then it would never be
> with spite or vindictiveness, only because it was necessary.)
>
> Pete.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

In this pygmies' defense I would like to point out that the guy that I
fired was totally incompetent (however, he did pass the interview and
that makes me doubt my ability to gauge how good a candidate is) and
he was about to blast his large redundancy package (from another firm)
on a flash motor so I started the inevitable process so that he
wouldn't be entirely lacking in monetary resources when he hit the
street.

From: Alistair on 18 Apr 2007 09:13
On 17 Apr, 02:15, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:
> <docdw...(a)panix.com> wrote in messagenews:f00v9i$6fl$1(a)reader2.panix.com...
> > In article <37h7235mfp72i68g1vc2dv7hatkjh56...(a)4ax.com>,
> > Howard Brazee <how...(a)brazee.net> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> >>My wife was complaining about some minimum wage workers who were
> >>incompetent for their jobs. I asked her - what should these people
> >>be doing? We can't force competency.
>
> > Leaving aside the question of 'who hired the incompetents?' - which, of
> > course, places the blame on Management - I would ask 'what is there that
> > encourages/rewards anything other than the 'some pretend to work while
> > others pretend to pay them' mentality?'... which brings into question the
> > entire Corporate Structure of Labor, Management and Executive groups.
>
> > (my Sainted Paternal Grandfather - may he sleep with the angels! - used to
> > say, long before things like Career Ladders and Empowerment were ever
> > buzzwords, 'you can tell who gets a piece of the till by the way they
> > move')
>
> > DD
>
> I don't see "Empowerment" as a buzzword (but that might be because I'm
> wearing my Manager hat as I write this:-)). I think it is really important
> to give people the "space" to make decisions and accept responsibility,
> always providing support for that process, and guidance if they ask for it.
> My experience has been that people grow when this happens and can then take
> more responsibility, and so on. (Ultimately, I'd like to get everybody doing
> my job for me, so I can just collect my cheque and say hello occasionally...
> :-) Hasn't happened yet, but I live in hope...)
>

Yea Gods! We agree on something!

>
> Pete.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


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