Is it Art? WAS:Re: How to talk like a programmer
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From: Kerry Liles on 27 May 2010 10:03 "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message news:8666vqFdchU1(a)mid.individual.net... > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > <snip> >>> >>> I do not see the IT business in the USA as being in any sort of >>> different condition than any other business in the USA... but >>> perhaps my vision is limited, aye. >>> >> >> Sadly. I agree. But that doesn't decrease the cesspool that the IT >> indistry is sinking into. And, as a real IT Professional I am more >> concerned about my art than others. >> > > A thought-provoking post, Bill. > > Is IT today an "art" or an "occupation", a "science" or something else > entirely? > > There was a time when IT was a mysterious cult. The practioners were like > wizards practising a dark art that the general public regarded with awe > and suspicion. > > (Robert Townsend, in his 1970 classic, "Up the Organization" spoke of IT > people as "Magicians" who cavorted in front of the mainframe casting > spells and "building a mystique, a Priesthood, their own mumbo-jumbo > ritual to keep you from knowing what they - and you - are doing." From > what I remember of the time this was pretty accurate.) > > In 1965 only a very small percentage of the general public had any idea of > how a computer worked or what was involved in programming it. > > Programming was an "art" inasmuch as it sought to optimise things (like > space against time) in a way that could not be taught but relied on the > intuition and imagination of the programmer. > > As the technology progressed these constraints were removed (processor > speed increased thousands of times and memory space became so vast that > the need to save a few bytes here and there disappeared). > > Standardised approaches and "best practises" were developed. In terms of > "art" that would be like painting with numbers. > > With the advent of "personal" computers in the early 1980s and the > subsequent explosion of their use throughout the 1990s and the first > decade of this century, to the point where millions of people have a > programmable "computer" in their pocket, ability to write software became > available to anyone who had an interest in it. > > Today, millions of people write programs and scripts. A whole generation > is growing up with computer technology and taking it for granted the way > they do a TV, refrigerator or washing machine. > > Millions of people also draw, paint, sculpt, and throw pots, but whether > the results are "art" or not is something to be argued over a beer. :-) > > (The bottom line is that "art" is very subjective, hence "I dunno much > about art, but I knows what I likes...") > > Computer Science is taught as an adjunct to many University courses or as > a specialised course of study in its own right. > > Note that they don't call it "Computer Art" (although that is also a > specialised area of computer use). > > So is IT an Art? > > I believe it was once, but not any more. Today it can be taught and > learned like any other branch of Science. > > So that leaves us with "Professional". > > Can you make a living entirely from IT knowledge? Possibly, but the field > is shrinking. These days, technical knowhow simply isn't enough. You need > understanding of the business and the whole picture (a bit like Professor > Deming's "Profound Knowledge") to successfully design, build, and > implement useful computer systems. > > So what exactly, in today's terms, is a "real IT Professional"? (are there > "imaginary IT Professionals"? :-)) > > And if the whole industry is "descending into a cesspool", as you claim, > how would you go about flushing it? > > Interested to hear your thoughts. > > I don't personally have a such a pessimistic view. I believe IT is being > subsumed into other fields of endeavour and I don't think it is a bad > thing. The pursuit of pure IT research is being left to Acadaemia. (In the > old days we used to do our own experiments to find what was good and what > was not...) The addition of computer technology has led to major > breakthroughs in fields like Medicine (could you imagine cataloging the > Human genome with filing cards, or even punched cards or paper tape?), > Engineering (simulation of earthquake damage has led to better building > design in many countires affected by eartuakes, including NZ), > Communications (could we run the worlds networks without computers?), and > many other fields of endeavour. (In fact, increasingly, just about EVERY > field of endeavour.) > > Companies are increasingly moving to outsource their IT requirements, or > divest themselves of the old IT Development Centre, largely because they > don't need it any more. IT for many companies now consists of network > maintenance and rollout of new software or packages (NOT written > in-house). > > As understanding and expertise has proliferated away from the hands of the > few and into the hands of the many, the "old school" form of IT > Professional has become less relevant. Today we have "network > specialists", "database specialists", "package specialists", "business > specialists", "configuration specialists" who all consider themselves to > be "IT Professionals". > > It isn't confined to Programmers and Analysts any more. (Maybe in > companies whose business is software development, but not in general terms > for most commercial organisations.) > > The world has changed and the IT world has gone with that change. > > Personally, I like it better now than I did 40 years ago. > Interesting ideas. I find it discouraging when other people claim they "work in IT" simply because they are the only person in their department that writes Excel macros or keyboard macros to 'automate' some otherwise menial tasks. There is programming and then there is Programming! Don't even get me started on the Microsoft Certified series of "titles" ... {must find scotch; now!} I must find some time to crawl the web looking for more humerous expansions of MCSD or MCSE (Must Consult Someone with Experience) etc.
From: SkippyPB on 27 May 2010 10:53 On Thu, 27 May 2010 10:03:44 -0400, "Kerry Liles" <kerry.removethisandoneperiod.liles(a)gmail.com> wrote: >"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message >news:8666vqFdchU1(a)mid.individual.net... >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> <snip> >>>> >>>> I do not see the IT business in the USA as being in any sort of >>>> different condition than any other business in the USA... but >>>> perhaps my vision is limited, aye. >>>> >>> >>> Sadly. I agree. But that doesn't decrease the cesspool that the IT >>> indistry is sinking into. And, as a real IT Professional I am more >>> concerned about my art than others. >>> >> >> A thought-provoking post, Bill. >> >> Is IT today an "art" or an "occupation", a "science" or something else >> entirely? >> >> There was a time when IT was a mysterious cult. The practioners were like >> wizards practising a dark art that the general public regarded with awe >> and suspicion. >> >> (Robert Townsend, in his 1970 classic, "Up the Organization" spoke of IT >> people as "Magicians" who cavorted in front of the mainframe casting >> spells and "building a mystique, a Priesthood, their own mumbo-jumbo >> ritual to keep you from knowing what they - and you - are doing." From >> what I remember of the time this was pretty accurate.) >> >> In 1965 only a very small percentage of the general public had any idea of >> how a computer worked or what was involved in programming it. >> >> Programming was an "art" inasmuch as it sought to optimise things (like >> space against time) in a way that could not be taught but relied on the >> intuition and imagination of the programmer. >> >> As the technology progressed these constraints were removed (processor >> speed increased thousands of times and memory space became so vast that >> the need to save a few bytes here and there disappeared). >> >> Standardised approaches and "best practises" were developed. In terms of >> "art" that would be like painting with numbers. >> >> With the advent of "personal" computers in the early 1980s and the >> subsequent explosion of their use throughout the 1990s and the first >> decade of this century, to the point where millions of people have a >> programmable "computer" in their pocket, ability to write software became >> available to anyone who had an interest in it. >> >> Today, millions of people write programs and scripts. A whole generation >> is growing up with computer technology and taking it for granted the way >> they do a TV, refrigerator or washing machine. >> >> Millions of people also draw, paint, sculpt, and throw pots, but whether >> the results are "art" or not is something to be argued over a beer. :-) >> >> (The bottom line is that "art" is very subjective, hence "I dunno much >> about art, but I knows what I likes...") >> >> Computer Science is taught as an adjunct to many University courses or as >> a specialised course of study in its own right. >> >> Note that they don't call it "Computer Art" (although that is also a >> specialised area of computer use). >> >> So is IT an Art? >> >> I believe it was once, but not any more. Today it can be taught and >> learned like any other branch of Science. >> >> So that leaves us with "Professional". >> >> Can you make a living entirely from IT knowledge? Possibly, but the field >> is shrinking. These days, technical knowhow simply isn't enough. You need >> understanding of the business and the whole picture (a bit like Professor >> Deming's "Profound Knowledge") to successfully design, build, and >> implement useful computer systems. >> >> So what exactly, in today's terms, is a "real IT Professional"? (are there >> "imaginary IT Professionals"? :-)) >> >> And if the whole industry is "descending into a cesspool", as you claim, >> how would you go about flushing it? >> >> Interested to hear your thoughts. >> >> I don't personally have a such a pessimistic view. I believe IT is being >> subsumed into other fields of endeavour and I don't think it is a bad >> thing. The pursuit of pure IT research is being left to Acadaemia. (In the >> old days we used to do our own experiments to find what was good and what >> was not...) The addition of computer technology has led to major >> breakthroughs in fields like Medicine (could you imagine cataloging the >> Human genome with filing cards, or even punched cards or paper tape?), >> Engineering (simulation of earthquake damage has led to better building >> design in many countires affected by eartuakes, including NZ), >> Communications (could we run the worlds networks without computers?), and >> many other fields of endeavour. (In fact, increasingly, just about EVERY >> field of endeavour.) >> >> Companies are increasingly moving to outsource their IT requirements, or >> divest themselves of the old IT Development Centre, largely because they >> don't need it any more. IT for many companies now consists of network >> maintenance and rollout of new software or packages (NOT written >> in-house). >> >> As understanding and expertise has proliferated away from the hands of the >> few and into the hands of the many, the "old school" form of IT >> Professional has become less relevant. Today we have "network >> specialists", "database specialists", "package specialists", "business >> specialists", "configuration specialists" who all consider themselves to >> be "IT Professionals". >> >> It isn't confined to Programmers and Analysts any more. (Maybe in >> companies whose business is software development, but not in general terms >> for most commercial organisations.) >> >> The world has changed and the IT world has gone with that change. >> >> Personally, I like it better now than I did 40 years ago. >> > > > >Interesting ideas. > >I find it discouraging when other people claim they "work in IT" simply >because they are the only person in their department that writes Excel >macros or keyboard macros to 'automate' some otherwise menial tasks. > >There is programming and then there is Programming! > >Don't even get me started on the Microsoft Certified series of "titles" ... >{must find scotch; now!} > >I must find some time to crawl the web looking for more humerous expansions >of MCSD or MCSE (Must Consult Someone with Experience) etc. > That reminds me of some 20 years ago or so I was helping my client install a PC based teller system in their bank. It consisted of a network of PCs in the branch and a file server and gateway PC that talked to the mainframe over tlecom lines or microwave. Even though I was the mainframe person responsible for the software on that side of the house, I had volunteered to do the PC Network stuff because I wanted to learn more about it. Besides, the mainframe software was solid and needed little attention once it was installed and setup. To make a long story short, I learned how to install all the necessary boards, make boot disks for the slave PCs and set up the Novell part of the network we were using. After having done about 10 or 15 branches, I was part of a team that was training some tellers on how to use the new system. One of the bank people, I believe she was a branch supervisor, asked me if I was "Novell Certified". I said no, I had no need for such certification as I had already been a programmer for over 10 years. She said I couldn't be a "real" programmer without the Novell Certification - my Purdue degree be damned. Oh well, I guess I was a good enough imaginary programmer. As for programming being an "Art"...the old saying, "Art for Art's Sake" seems appropriate. I take pride in my programs but many of the younger folks I work with do not take pride in theirs. They don't care about efficiency of code; they don't care that they could easily reduce redundancy; they don't care if the 5 deep nested IF is hard to read etc. etc. Get it done, hope it works, move on is the latest way to do things. I'm troubled and concerned by this lack of professionalism as I see it. I know I wasn't that way when I was just starting out, but times have changed. Regards, -- //// (o o) -oOO--(_)--OOo- "It's not getting any smarter out there, people. You have to come to terms with stupidity and make it work for you." -- Frank Zappa ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Remove nospam to email me. Steve
From: Anonymous on 27 May 2010 11:49 In article <l31tv51dgaubqnt00k90p5nfb6r5lmmi6f(a)4ax.com>, SkippyPB <swiegand(a)Nospam.neo.rr.com> wrote: [snip] >As for programming being an "Art"...the old saying, "Art for Art's >Sake" seems appropriate. I take pride in my programs but many of the >younger folks I work with do not take pride in theirs. They don't >care about efficiency of code; they don't care that they could easily >reduce redundancy; they don't care if the 5 deep nested IF is hard to >read etc. etc. Get it done, hope it works, move on is the latest way >to do things. The 'durned fool kids nowadays' stuff aside... it has been posted, repeatedly, that programming will reach a state where source code is unnecessary. Who cares if you can't read the stuff if you don't have to? Who cares about efficiency when your wristwatch has more computing power than did the early space flights? Who cares about *anything* because All Ya Gotta Do is write another object and all the problems Just Go Away? DD
From: Howard Brazee on 27 May 2010 12:45 On Thu, 27 May 2010 15:24:40 +1200, "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote: >> Sadly. I agree. But that doesn't decrease the cesspool that the IT >> indistry is sinking into. And, as a real IT Professional I am more >> concerned about my art than others. >> > >A thought-provoking post, Bill. > >Is IT today an "art" or an "occupation", a "science" or something else >entirely? It seems to me that artists and fans of art are more ready to complain about lowering of standards than professionals are. Probably because it's harder to measure achievement in the arts. -- "In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found, than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace to the legislature, and not to the executive department." - James Madison
From: Howard Brazee on 27 May 2010 12:46
On Thu, 27 May 2010 12:54:18 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf(a)panix.com () wrote: >Apophatically neglecting the title of Donand Knuth's well-known work... >art is other than trivial is equally as subjective as mathematics, >geometry, astronomy and more. LOL! -- "In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found, than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace to the legislature, and not to the executive department." - James Madison |