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From: John John - MVP on 7 May 2010 13:13 hector wrote: > Of course there is a MAIN source. It has to start from somewhere. Most > PEERS are going to start with the MAIN source, others will use a mirror. > The topology is more like a star network where you main have many hubs. > But there is a main HUB source which is not going to be gating to other > servers. That is certainly not my (and many others, I'm sure) understanding of the Usenet network. It may have been a star network in the very early days but it is now, and has for quite a while been described as a mesh network. John
From: Hector Santos on 7 May 2010 14:15 John John - MVP wrote: > hector wrote: > >> Of course there is a MAIN source. It has to start from somewhere. >> Most PEERS are going to start with the MAIN source, others will use a >> mirror. The topology is more like a star network where you main have >> many hubs. But there is a main HUB source which is not going to be >> gating to other servers. > > That is certainly not my (and many others, I'm sure) understanding of > the Usenet network. It may have been a star network in the very early > days but it is now, and has for quite a while been described as a mesh > network. Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet. Second, call it what it want, it is still the same thing. A mesh is just a form of a star network. No matter what you can wish to call it, it requires coordination and each node knowing who are their Uplinks and Downlinks which is what experts in the mail distribution market, who still run the show, know it as. Otherwise you will have redundancy (and hence duplicity). An uplink is who you send data too, and downlink is who you get data from. Now, in a mesh, redundancy may be part of the expectation with duplicity considered a lower overhead operation then it was in other days where hardware did did not allow for such low efficiency however it still needed to be checked. In a well coordinated network, to minimize duplicity, the nodes are usually going to go to a more centralize hub (lets call it MAIN). If the Nodes are going to also serve as HUBS for others, then they better have dupe checking because they don't KNOW if their own nodes are also using the MAIN hub. In general, old and current, every node has a list of remote host they will connect too to IMPORT and EXPORT information. If you wish to see the PATH a messge takes from any server, see the Path: header in a newsgroup article. Viewing your message from the Microsoft NNTP server, I see: Path: TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl That means that it was posted at TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl but it was also imported to: TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl You can tell it was posted at TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl because of the message-ID: header: Message-ID: <uSSuHig7KHA.4208(a)TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl> Now if I go to google groups and see your message from there, I see (all one line) Path: g2news1.google.com! news1.google.com! news.glorb.com! feeder.erje.net! weretis.net! feeder1.news.weretis.net! TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl! TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl Starting from the bottom, the feeder1.news.weretis.net! server it pulled from Microsoft TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl! and it was gated thru a number of 5 additional servers. Well, #1 once the MS servers goes down, Google will not be able to pull from TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl! It will have find some thing else. #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will be posting to GOOGLE. So no matter want you wish to call it, there is is a "backbone" concept where there is a main hub who is normally known as the OWNER of the newsgroup. In regards to USENET, this is different issue. This is in industry sponsored backbone. Not one company ones it. Its like a DNS. Everyone has it access to add and remove from it. As long as you have have primary uplink you can act as a primary server as well. Anyway, with usenet, long ago, we requested an alt.* group for usenet, It still exist: alt.bbs.wildcat We abandoned it long ago around 1997 when it became a high volume of spam for us and the anonymous dirt was not something we wanted to bother with our customers with when it was gated into our support avenues. The only reason we had no problem abandoning it was because it wasn't our NEWSGROUP. We were not the main hub for it. Thats not the case here with Microsoft.* newsgroup. These are not usenet groups. The main hub was Microsoft where others pulled from. Now, if someone were to migrate all the microsoft.public.* groups into usenet groups, then you and Jochen would be correct, it wouldn't matter if the Microsoft NNTP servers goes down because they would be just a node off the backbone, not the main hub for it. Hey, who knows, Maybe Google's answer to this Microsoft dropping of their NNTP server would be to announce their own services to be available. But they don't want people off the web for the same reason Microsoft wants people to use the web. :) -- HLS
From: John John - MVP on 7 May 2010 14:57 Hector Santos wrote: > John John - MVP wrote: > >> hector wrote: >> >>> Of course there is a MAIN source. It has to start from somewhere. >>> Most PEERS are going to start with the MAIN source, others will use a >>> mirror. The topology is more like a star network where you main have >>> many hubs. But there is a main HUB source which is not going to be >>> gating to other servers. >> >> That is certainly not my (and many others, I'm sure) understanding of >> the Usenet network. It may have been a star network in the very early >> days but it is now, and has for quite a while been described as a mesh >> network. > > > Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet. Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups... http://www.microsoft.com/communities/guide/newsgroupfaq.mspx > {snip] > > Well, #1 once the MS servers goes down, Google will not be able to pull > from TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl! It will have find some thing else. > > #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you > don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will be > posting to GOOGLE. People post to the groups from all kinds of different servers, when the Microsoft servers are down these other servers still synchronize between themselves without any problem and these folks who post on other servers can still post and read without the intermediary of Microsoft servers. We have often seen this in the past when outages of a few hours or more at the Microsoft servers have happened and some of us use other servers to keep on posting, when the Microsoft servers come back only line they then "catch-up" and then all the posts show up many hours latter on these servers. This is obvious enough when you use non Microsoft servers to read the posts in Microsoft groups, all kinds of posts which have not made it to the MS servers, or posts which have been removed from the MS servers are on the other servers for all to see and read. John
From: LD5SZRA on 7 May 2010 16:22 Most probably you won't be able to move to anywhere else; not even on forums because Microsoft hasn't got any plans to open forums for Windows XP and earlier technology. Somebody suggested that you can go to other P2P newsgroups like Google or aioe.org. This again won't be possible because microsoft may force them to close their newsgroups bearing Micro$hit name. The only alternative I can think of is for somebody to organize a group of about 10 individuals to come together and start their own newsgroups to be financed by advertising and volunteers. I am willing to put my name forward for this project provided there are individuals who have some basic knowledge of hosting NNTPs which can be expanded further as time goes by. I am good at programming and developing websites using Java, Javascript and ASP and perhaps some networking skills and SQL servers. that is all I know at present. hth "Pavel A." wrote: > > Dear users of msnews.microsoft.com, > > There are rumors that Microsoft plans to shut down this nntp server. > > See this for example: > http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20004109-56.html > > Any thoughts on where we can migrate from here - besides of the web-based > MSDN forums?. > To Google groups, maybe? > > Regards, > -- pa > -- THE INFORMATION IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. LD5SZRA DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. IN NO EVENT SHALL LD5SZRA OR ITS ASSOCIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER INCLUDING DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, LOSS OF BUSINESS PROFITS OR SPECIAL DAMAGES, EVEN IF LD5SZRA OR ITS ASSOCIATES HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES SO THE FOREGOING LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY. Copyright LD5SZRA 2010.
From: Hector Santos on 7 May 2010 18:34
John John - MVP wrote: > > > Hector Santos wrote: >> Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet. > > Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups... > > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/guide/newsgroupfaq.mspx Unfortunately, another case of Microsoft creating user confusion in this regard. Microsoft.public.* are *not* part of the usenet backbone newsgroup listing nor backbone stream. Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you have a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that the usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.* If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds. >> #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you >> don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will >> be posting to GOOGLE. > > People post to the groups from all kinds of different servers, when the > Microsoft servers are down these other servers still synchronize between > themselves without any problem and these folks who post on other servers > can still post and read without the intermediary of Microsoft servers. > We have often seen this in the past when outages of a few hours or more > at the Microsoft servers have happened and some of us use other servers > to keep on posting, when the Microsoft servers come back only line they > then "catch-up" and then all the posts show up many hours latter on > these servers. This is obvious enough when you use non Microsoft > servers to read the posts in Microsoft groups, all kinds of posts which > have not made it to the MS servers, or posts which have been removed > from the MS servers are on the other servers for all to see and read. All that will change one MS pulls the plug from the wall. While you might find another site that keeps the newsgroups and they still remain relatively active, that is only because the site itself have become the MAIN source for others to feed into - a large part of the chain. But those chains that feed off Microsoft only are lost unless they feed into someone else. -- HLS |