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From: Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn on 23 Jan 2010 13:26 Richard Cornford wrote: > Scott Sauyet wrote: >> Well, his comments on the mark-up are only valid for HTML doctypes. >> Whereas this is valid for HTML4 or XHTML: >> >> <input type="submit" id="butOne" value="butOne"/> > > That is a true statement (at least to the extent to which it is possible > to declare any mark-up fragment 'valid', given that validity is a > quality that only applies to hole documents in this context), but it is > a true statement behind which there is an explanation that reveals a > very messy truth. > > HTML is an application of SGML (Standard Generalised Markup Language, as > defined in ISO 8879). HTML 4 has an "SGML Declaration" which asserts a > set of features from SGML that are (theoretically) used in HTML, and > which impact on HTML validity. An extract from that document reads:- > > | <!SGML "ISO 8879:1986 (WWW)" > | -- > | SGML Declaration for HyperText Markup Language version HTML 4 > | ... > | -- > | ... > | FEATURES > | MINIMIZE > | DATATAG NO > | OMITTAG YES > | RANK NO > | SHORTTAG YES > | > | ... > > So, for example, that "OMITTAG YES" allows HTML to imply opening and > closing tags based on (structural) context, in a way that is forbidden > in XML (and so in XHTML). The "SHORTTAG YES" makes provision for an SGML > shorthand that allows, e.g.:- > > <title></title> > > - to be written as:- > > <title/ > > -(note that there is no closing chevron in that TITLE element > declaration). No SGML markup item (to avoid the ambiguous term "element") is a declaration if it does not start with `<!' (Markup Declaration Open [MDO] delimiter). The correct term for this is _start tag_ (of an element). PointedEars -- realism: HTML 4.01 Strict evangelism: XHTML 1.0 Strict madness: XHTML 1.1 as application/xhtml+xml -- Bjoern Hoehrmann
From: Eric Bednarz on 23 Jan 2010 16:37 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars(a)web.de> writes: > Richard Cornford wrote: >> […] The "SHORTTAG YES" makes provision for an SGML >> shorthand that allows, e.g.:- >> >> <title></title> >> >> - to be written as:- >> >> <title/ Not exactly. Rather as: <title// >> -(note that there is no closing chevron in that TITLE element >> declaration). > > No SGML markup item (to avoid the ambiguous term "element") is a > declaration if it does not start with `<!' That is a false – generalized – statement, because it implies the reference concrete syntax. > (Markup Declaration Open [MDO] > delimiter). > The correct term for this is _start tag_ (of an element). The correct term is 'start-tag'.
From: Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn on 23 Jan 2010 19:00 Eric Bednarz wrote: > Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars(a)web.de> writes: >> Richard Cornford wrote: >>> <title/ > [...] >>> -(note that there is no closing chevron in that TITLE element >>> declaration). >> >> No SGML markup item (to avoid the ambiguous term "element") is a >> declaration if it does not start with `<!' > > That is a false – generalized – statement, because it implies the > reference concrete syntax. Maybe so; however, the code above is certainly no declaration. What other declarations are there in SGML that do not start with `<!' (MDO)? >> (Markup Declaration Open [MDO] >> delimiter). > >> The correct term for this is _start tag_ (of an element). > > The correct term is 'start-tag'. I daresay that is a matter of preference; the hyphenization of compound words is not fixed in English. We can find occurrences of "start-tag", but also "start tag" in references; in the SGML grammar we can also find "start_tag" which would indicate that the original wording was "start tag" (as in "element_content" for "element content"). PointedEars -- realism: HTML 4.01 Strict evangelism: XHTML 1.0 Strict madness: XHTML 1.1 as application/xhtml+xml -- Bjoern Hoehrmann
From: Eric Bednarz on 24 Jan 2010 14:14 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars(a)web.de> writes: > Eric Bednarz wrote: > >> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars(a)web.de> writes: >>> No SGML markup item (to avoid the ambiguous term "element") is a >>> declaration if it does not start with `<!' >> >> That is a false – generalized – statement, because it implies the >> reference concrete syntax. […] > What other declarations are there in SGML that do not start with `<!' > (MDO)? I don't know what was difficult to understand about my statement. <!SGML "ISO 8879:1986 (WWW)" CHARSET BASESET "ISO 646:1983//CHARSET International Reference Version (IRV)//ESC 2/5 4/0" DESCSET 0 9 UNUSED 9 2 9 11 2 UNUSED 13 1 13 14 18 UNUSED 32 95 32 127 1 UNUSED CAPACITY PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//CAPACITY Reference//EN" SCOPE DOCUMENT SYNTAX SHUNCHAR NONE BASESET "ISO 646-1983//CHARSET International Reference Version (IRV)//ESC 2/5 4/0" DESCSET 0 128 0 FUNCTION RE 13 RS 10 SPACE 32 TAB SEPCHAR 9 NAMING LCNMSTRT "" UCNMSTRT "" LCNMCHAR "" UCNMCHAR "" NAMECASE GENERAL YES ENTITY NO DELIM GENERAL SGMLREF DSC "." DSO ":" MDC "." MDO "AN" NESTC "('" NET "');" STAGO "j" SHORTREF SGMLREF NAMES SGMLREF ANY ANSWERED DOCTYPE SWER ELEMENT Y QUANTITY SGMLREF FEATURES MINIMIZE DATATAG NO OMITTAG NO RANK NO SHORTTAG YES LINK SIMPLE NO IMPLICIT NO EXPLICIT NO OTHER CONCUR NO SUBDOC NO FORMAL NO APPINFO NONE > Answer query: Any query answered... jQuery('SGML is bad, mkay');
From: Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn on 24 Jan 2010 16:26
Eric Bednarz wrote: > Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars(a)web.de> writes: >> Eric Bednarz wrote: >>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars(a)web.de> writes: >>>> No SGML markup item (to avoid the ambiguous term "element") is a >>>> declaration if it does not start with `<!' >>> >>> That is a false – generalized – statement, because it implies the >>> reference concrete syntax. > > […] > >> What other declarations are there in SGML that do not start with `<!' >> (MDO)? > > I don't know what was difficult to understand about my statement. I don't know why you are not answering my question but quote something that proves me right instead. > <!SGML "ISO 8879:1986 (WWW)" [...] ^^ You see the MDO here, don't you? POintedEars -- realism: HTML 4.01 Strict evangelism: XHTML 1.0 Strict madness: XHTML 1.1 as application/xhtml+xml -- Bjoern Hoehrmann |