utility that can delete files
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From: John John - MVP on 18 Jun 2010 13:15 Bill in Co. wrote: > John John - MVP wrote: >> db wrote: >> >>> in fact, the wiping utilities >>> don't overwrite the physical >>> data in the disk sectors. >> Of course they do, they overwrite every sector on the disk, including >> cluster tips. If the wiping utility doesn't do this then it is >> completely useless! >> >> John > > :-) > Hoopiehead alert??? well, db and his grasp (or imagination) of how things work...
From: Db on 18 Jun 2010 18:01 the mechanics of clusters do not work the way you think they should. there is a lot of data in between the clusters and lots more in orphaned clusters allocated to files that utilize multiple clusters. wiping utilities are ineffective and the rule of thumb is to "destroy" the hard drive. sounds like the brooklyn bridge you bought is in need of repairs. -- -- db���`�...�><)))�> DatabaseBen, Retired Professional ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This NNTP newsgroup is evolving to: http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx "Bill in Co." <not_really_here(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message news:#i2uAawDLHA.5784(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > John John - MVP wrote: >> db wrote: >> >>> in fact, the wiping utilities >>> don't overwrite the physical >>> data in the disk sectors. >> >> Of course they do, they overwrite every sector on the disk, including >> cluster tips. If the wiping utility doesn't do this then it is >> completely useless! >> >> John > > :-) > Hoopiehead alert??? > >
From: Mike S on 18 Jun 2010 18:22 On 6/18/2010 7:10 AM, John John - MVP wrote: > > Mike S wrote: >> On 6/18/2010 4:39 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >>> Mike S wrote: >>>> On 6/17/2010 11:10 AM, Db wrote: >>>>> there are utilities that >>>>> wipe the disk of deleted files. >>>>> >>>>> however, there are differing >>>>> opinions whether wiping >>>>> deleted files with something >>>>> like military encryption >>>>> is effective against >>>>> hard drive forensics. >>>>> >>>>> my opinion and a old friend >>>>> who is an m.i.t professor >>>>> is that the only sure way that >>>>> the contents on the disk are >>>>> not retrievable is to toss the >>>>> hard drive into a volcano or >>>>> the middle of ocean in the >>>>> middle of the night. >>>> >>>> I saw a show on television that mentioned some very powerful forensic >>>> software that could find the last two (that's right 2) sets of files >>>> on a hdd that had been overwritten. That is you save file A, then you >>>> overwrite it with file B. Then you overwrite that with file C. They >>>> could recover B and A with extremely high rates of accuracy!!! >>>> >>>> But most people do not have access to that software. >>> >>> Most people don't have access to that software because it just plain >>> doesn't exist, it's nothing but BS! >>> >>> John >> >> And you know this how? > > You are the one who made the claim that there is some sort of 'magic' > software available that can recover overwritten files, it is up to you > to substantiate your claim and supply the name of the software and the > company who makes this software. The leading forensic recovery software > (EnCase) cannot do this and none of the major data recovery firms can do > this, just call them and ask them and you will get the same answer from > all of them. This idea that data could be recovered from overwritten > drives was a theory advanced by Dr. Peter Gutmann and he himself has > told me that his theory was misconstrued by many who read his paper, he > was never able to recover overwritten files and he knows of no one who > ever was. > John I claimed that I saw this on a television show, that is true. They did not mention the name of the software. Also the government often has technology that is years ahead of what the public knows about. I have not seen this at work but I now damage platters on drives I don't want people to access anything from, and I advise the same to all of my friends. You also made a claim, that it doesn't exist, so how can you be uncomfortable if someone asks you to back up your claim? Mike
From: John John - MVP on 18 Jun 2010 22:40 The smallest storage unit is a a sector and clusters are groups of sectors. Poorly designed wiping utilities wipe 'files' and do not bother with cluster tips (unused sectors within clusters). Good wiping utilities overwrite *every* sector (including cluster tips and unused clusters), as a matter of fact few wiping utilities in use today would work otherwise. Your understanding of how disk wiping works is feeble to say the least, securely wiped data is unrecoverable by any means. John Db wrote: > the mechanics of clusters > do not work the way you > think they should. > > there is a lot of data in > between the clusters and > > lots more in orphaned clusters > allocated to files that utilize > multiple clusters. > > wiping utilities are ineffective > and the rule of thumb is to > "destroy" the hard drive. > > sounds like the brooklyn > bridge you bought is in need > of repairs. > >
From: John John - MVP on 19 Jun 2010 09:10
Mike S wrote: > On 6/18/2010 7:10 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >> >> Mike S wrote: >>> On 6/18/2010 4:39 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >>>> Mike S wrote: >>>>> On 6/17/2010 11:10 AM, Db wrote: >>>>>> there are utilities that >>>>>> wipe the disk of deleted files. >>>>>> >>>>>> however, there are differing >>>>>> opinions whether wiping >>>>>> deleted files with something >>>>>> like military encryption >>>>>> is effective against >>>>>> hard drive forensics. >>>>>> >>>>>> my opinion and a old friend >>>>>> who is an m.i.t professor >>>>>> is that the only sure way that >>>>>> the contents on the disk are >>>>>> not retrievable is to toss the >>>>>> hard drive into a volcano or >>>>>> the middle of ocean in the >>>>>> middle of the night. >>>>> >>>>> I saw a show on television that mentioned some very powerful forensic >>>>> software that could find the last two (that's right 2) sets of files >>>>> on a hdd that had been overwritten. That is you save file A, then you >>>>> overwrite it with file B. Then you overwrite that with file C. They >>>>> could recover B and A with extremely high rates of accuracy!!! >>>>> >>>>> But most people do not have access to that software. >>>> >>>> Most people don't have access to that software because it just plain >>>> doesn't exist, it's nothing but BS! >>>> >>>> John >>> >>> And you know this how? >> >> You are the one who made the claim that there is some sort of 'magic' >> software available that can recover overwritten files, it is up to you >> to substantiate your claim and supply the name of the software and the >> company who makes this software. The leading forensic recovery software >> (EnCase) cannot do this and none of the major data recovery firms can do >> this, just call them and ask them and you will get the same answer from >> all of them. This idea that data could be recovered from overwritten >> drives was a theory advanced by Dr. Peter Gutmann and he himself has >> told me that his theory was misconstrued by many who read his paper, he >> was never able to recover overwritten files and he knows of no one who >> ever was. >> John > > I claimed that I saw this on a television show, that is true. They did > not mention the name of the software. Also the government often has > technology that is years ahead of what the public knows about. I have > not seen this at work but I now damage platters on drives I don't want > people to access anything from, and I advise the same to all of my friends. > > You also made a claim, that it doesn't exist, so how can you be > uncomfortable if someone asks you to back up your claim? For a period of about five years, on and off in my spare time, I did a lot of searching for this 'Holy Grail' of data recovery! Anytime that it would appear that promising information was about to be found it always came down to the same thing; quotes from or claims made on the basis of Dr, Gutmann's paper or hearsay about conspiracies and government secrets! I found out that the one thing in common that any who claimed that this was possible have is that none of them could give hard evidence or give us the name of anyone or any company who could actually do it, classic hallmarks of urban myths! After countless hours of futile searching for this data recovery Grail I decided to ask persons and companies in the know about data recovery, I started e-mailing and calling those who I thought would be able to provide real answers. I contacted at least 10 different data recovery companies, some who make data recovery software and some who run clean room data recovery. All of them told me the same thing, they cannot recover overwritten data. Quoting from an email from one of the major firms: "It is nothing but a theory at best, add secret government capabilities and the theory has now entered the realm of urban legends". The claim that governments have tools to do this is often used to bolster the myth but it is interesting to note that in his 2004 paper, Recovering Unrecoverable Data - The Need for Drive-Independant Data Recovery, Charles H. Sobey wrote: "It is very telling that the US Department of Defense's Combating Terrorism Technology Support Office placed a "Broad Agency Announcement" seeking just such a [magic] machine for damaged, erased, or overwritten media." The DoD's request went unanswered, no one took them up on it. In a telephone conversation I posed the question about the DoD's request to an engineer at Seagate. The engineer chuckled and said that while he was not privy to any information about these kind of projects within his company he nonetheless felt that to undertake the request would have been an exercise in futility. Finally, after all of the data recovery and hard disk manufacturers that I had contacted told me that it was impossible to recover overwritten data I decided to ask Dr. Gutmann himself about it. His answers to me confirmed the urban myth status of the whole thing. You can read Charles H. Sobey's paper here: ActionFront Research Recovering Unrecoverable Data - The Need for Drive-Independant Data Recovery http://www.actionfront.com/ts_whitepaper.aspx Dr. Gutmann's paper is available here: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html More on the subject in these links: Data Removal and Erasure from Hard Disk Drives http://www.actionfront.com/ts_dataremoval.aspx#Overwriting Overwritten data: Why even the Secret Service can't get it back http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/5756 Is overwritten data really unrecoverable? http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/5687 Can Intelligence Agencies Read Overwritten Data? http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html Researchers Prove Single Pass Overwrite Effective https://infosecurity.us/?p=5474 John |