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From: Larry on 19 Jun 2010 10:11 TopPosted Because It Makes Sense In This Case: Excellent information, John. Many thanks for taking the time to post it. -- Larry On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:10:15 -0300, John John - MVP <audetweld(a)nbnot.nb.ca> wrote: >Mike S wrote: >> On 6/18/2010 7:10 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >>> >>> Mike S wrote: >>>> On 6/18/2010 4:39 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >>>>> Mike S wrote: >>>>>> On 6/17/2010 11:10 AM, Db wrote: >>>>>>> there are utilities that >>>>>>> wipe the disk of deleted files. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> however, there are differing >>>>>>> opinions whether wiping >>>>>>> deleted files with something >>>>>>> like military encryption >>>>>>> is effective against >>>>>>> hard drive forensics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> my opinion and a old friend >>>>>>> who is an m.i.t professor >>>>>>> is that the only sure way that >>>>>>> the contents on the disk are >>>>>>> not retrievable is to toss the >>>>>>> hard drive into a volcano or >>>>>>> the middle of ocean in the >>>>>>> middle of the night. >>>>>> >>>>>> I saw a show on television that mentioned some very powerful forensic >>>>>> software that could find the last two (that's right 2) sets of files >>>>>> on a hdd that had been overwritten. That is you save file A, then you >>>>>> overwrite it with file B. Then you overwrite that with file C. They >>>>>> could recover B and A with extremely high rates of accuracy!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> But most people do not have access to that software. >>>>> >>>>> Most people don't have access to that software because it just plain >>>>> doesn't exist, it's nothing but BS! >>>>> >>>>> John >>>> >>>> And you know this how? >>> >>> You are the one who made the claim that there is some sort of 'magic' >>> software available that can recover overwritten files, it is up to you >>> to substantiate your claim and supply the name of the software and the >>> company who makes this software. The leading forensic recovery software >>> (EnCase) cannot do this and none of the major data recovery firms can do >>> this, just call them and ask them and you will get the same answer from >>> all of them. This idea that data could be recovered from overwritten >>> drives was a theory advanced by Dr. Peter Gutmann and he himself has >>> told me that his theory was misconstrued by many who read his paper, he >>> was never able to recover overwritten files and he knows of no one who >>> ever was. >>> John >> >> I claimed that I saw this on a television show, that is true. They did >> not mention the name of the software. Also the government often has >> technology that is years ahead of what the public knows about. I have >> not seen this at work but I now damage platters on drives I don't want >> people to access anything from, and I advise the same to all of my friends. >> >> You also made a claim, that it doesn't exist, so how can you be >> uncomfortable if someone asks you to back up your claim? > >For a period of about five years, on and off in my spare time, I did a >lot of searching for this 'Holy Grail' of data recovery! Anytime that >it would appear that promising information was about to be found it >always came down to the same thing; quotes from or claims made on the >basis of Dr, Gutmann's paper or hearsay about conspiracies and >government secrets! I found out that the one thing in common that any >who claimed that this was possible have is that none of them could give >hard evidence or give us the name of anyone or any company who could >actually do it, classic hallmarks of urban myths! > >After countless hours of futile searching for this data recovery Grail I >decided to ask persons and companies in the know about data recovery, I >started e-mailing and calling those who I thought would be able to >provide real answers. I contacted at least 10 different data recovery >companies, some who make data recovery software and some who run clean >room data recovery. All of them told me the same thing, they cannot >recover overwritten data. Quoting from an email from one of the major >firms: "It is nothing but a theory at best, add secret government >capabilities and the theory has now entered the realm of urban legends". > >The claim that governments have tools to do this is often used to >bolster the myth but it is interesting to note that in his 2004 paper, >Recovering Unrecoverable Data - The Need for Drive-Independant Data >Recovery, Charles H. Sobey wrote: > >"It is very telling that the US Department of Defense's Combating >Terrorism Technology Support Office placed a "Broad Agency >Announcement" seeking just such a [magic] machine for damaged, erased, >or overwritten media." > >The DoD's request went unanswered, no one took them up on it. In a >telephone conversation I posed the question about the DoD's request to >an engineer at Seagate. The engineer chuckled and said that while he >was not privy to any information about these kind of projects within his >company he nonetheless felt that to undertake the request would have >been an exercise in futility. > >Finally, after all of the data recovery and hard disk manufacturers that >I had contacted told me that it was impossible to recover overwritten >data I decided to ask Dr. Gutmann himself about it. His answers to me >confirmed the urban myth status of the whole thing. > >You can read Charles H. Sobey's paper here: > >ActionFront Research >Recovering Unrecoverable Data - The Need for Drive-Independant Data Recovery >http://www.actionfront.com/ts_whitepaper.aspx > >Dr. Gutmann's paper is available here: >http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html > > >More on the subject in these links: > >Data Removal and Erasure from Hard Disk Drives >http://www.actionfront.com/ts_dataremoval.aspx#Overwriting > >Overwritten data: Why even the Secret Service can't get it back >http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/5756 > >Is overwritten data really unrecoverable? >http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/5687 > >Can Intelligence Agencies Read Overwritten Data? >http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html > >Researchers Prove Single Pass Overwrite Effective >https://infosecurity.us/?p=5474 > >John
From: Twayne on 19 Jun 2010 11:15 In news:ed%23YIijDLHA.5436(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, Gomez <gomez(a)automail.com> typed: > Does anyone knows a utility that can delete files > recursively from a folder? I used so far the dos command > line "del /S *" but I prefer a Windows utility > Regards > Gomez copy, xcopy, xxcopy, and a jillion others. Write a batch and call it from windows; no prompt line needed.
From: Db on 19 Jun 2010 13:48 I and a few others herein may have done a disfavor to our security as a nation and or our communities by possibly providing terrorists, hostiles and criminals with some facts. however, it is my sincere hope that they believe your rant. another thing that is beyond your comprehension is that true professionals do not use name calling. it is said that it would take 50 monkeys on 50 typewriters to write 50 pages of "war and peace" but it only took you five years and your babbling rant to show us that it would take you a lot longer than the chimps. -- -- db���`�...�><)))�> DatabaseBen, Retired Professional ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This NNTP newsgroup is evolving to: http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx "John John - MVP" <audetweld(a)nbnot.nb.ca> wrote in message news:O6jNJD7DLHA.3732(a)TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > Mike S wrote: >> On 6/18/2010 7:10 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >>> >>> Mike S wrote: >>>> On 6/18/2010 4:39 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >>>>> Mike S wrote: >>>>>> On 6/17/2010 11:10 AM, Db wrote: >>>>>>> there are utilities that >>>>>>> wipe the disk of deleted files. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> however, there are differing >>>>>>> opinions whether wiping >>>>>>> deleted files with something >>>>>>> like military encryption >>>>>>> is effective against >>>>>>> hard drive forensics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> my opinion and a old friend >>>>>>> who is an m.i.t professor >>>>>>> is that the only sure way that >>>>>>> the contents on the disk are >>>>>>> not retrievable is to toss the >>>>>>> hard drive into a volcano or >>>>>>> the middle of ocean in the >>>>>>> middle of the night. >>>>>> >>>>>> I saw a show on television that mentioned some very powerful forensic >>>>>> software that could find the last two (that's right 2) sets of files >>>>>> on a hdd that had been overwritten. That is you save file A, then you >>>>>> overwrite it with file B. Then you overwrite that with file C. They >>>>>> could recover B and A with extremely high rates of accuracy!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> But most people do not have access to that software. >>>>> >>>>> Most people don't have access to that software because it just plain >>>>> doesn't exist, it's nothing but BS! >>>>> >>>>> John >>>> >>>> And you know this how? >>> >>> You are the one who made the claim that there is some sort of 'magic' >>> software available that can recover overwritten files, it is up to you >>> to substantiate your claim and supply the name of the software and the >>> company who makes this software. The leading forensic recovery software >>> (EnCase) cannot do this and none of the major data recovery firms can do >>> this, just call them and ask them and you will get the same answer from >>> all of them. This idea that data could be recovered from overwritten >>> drives was a theory advanced by Dr. Peter Gutmann and he himself has >>> told me that his theory was misconstrued by many who read his paper, he >>> was never able to recover overwritten files and he knows of no one who >>> ever was. >>> John >> >> I claimed that I saw this on a television show, that is true. They did >> not mention the name of the software. Also the government often has >> technology that is years ahead of what the public knows about. I have not >> seen this at work but I now damage platters on drives I don't want people >> to access anything from, and I advise the same to all of my friends. >> >> You also made a claim, that it doesn't exist, so how can you be >> uncomfortable if someone asks you to back up your claim? > > For a period of about five years, on and off in my spare time, I did a lot > of searching for this 'Holy Grail' of data recovery! Anytime that it > would appear that promising information was about to be found it always > came down to the same thing; quotes from or claims made on the basis of > Dr, Gutmann's paper or hearsay about conspiracies and government secrets! > I found out that the one thing in common that any who claimed that this > was possible have is that none of them could give hard evidence or give us > the name of anyone or any company who could actually do it, classic > hallmarks of urban myths! > > After countless hours of futile searching for this data recovery Grail I > decided to ask persons and companies in the know about data recovery, I > started e-mailing and calling those who I thought would be able to provide > real answers. I contacted at least 10 different data recovery companies, > some who make data recovery software and some who run clean room data > recovery. All of them told me the same thing, they cannot recover > overwritten data. Quoting from an email from one of the major firms: "It > is nothing but a theory at best, add secret government capabilities and > the theory has now entered the realm of urban legends". > > The claim that governments have tools to do this is often used to bolster > the myth but it is interesting to note that in his 2004 paper, Recovering > Unrecoverable Data - The Need for Drive-Independant Data Recovery, Charles > H. Sobey wrote: > > "It is very telling that the US Department of Defense's Combating > Terrorism Technology Support Office placed a "Broad Agency > Announcement" seeking just such a [magic] machine for damaged, erased, > or overwritten media." > > The DoD's request went unanswered, no one took them up on it. In a > telephone conversation I posed the question about the DoD's request to an > engineer at Seagate. The engineer chuckled and said that while he was not > privy to any information about these kind of projects within his company > he nonetheless felt that to undertake the request would have been an > exercise in futility. > > Finally, after all of the data recovery and hard disk manufacturers that I > had contacted told me that it was impossible to recover overwritten data I > decided to ask Dr. Gutmann himself about it. His answers to me confirmed > the urban myth status of the whole thing. > > You can read Charles H. Sobey's paper here: > > ActionFront Research > Recovering Unrecoverable Data - The Need for Drive-Independant Data > Recovery > http://www.actionfront.com/ts_whitepaper.aspx > > Dr. Gutmann's paper is available here: > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html > > > More on the subject in these links: > > Data Removal and Erasure from Hard Disk Drives > http://www.actionfront.com/ts_dataremoval.aspx#Overwriting > > Overwritten data: Why even the Secret Service can't get it back > http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/5756 > > Is overwritten data really unrecoverable? > http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/5687 > > Can Intelligence Agencies Read Overwritten Data? > http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html > > Researchers Prove Single Pass Overwrite Effective > https://infosecurity.us/?p=5474 > > John
From: Mike S on 19 Jun 2010 18:38 On 6/19/2010 10:48 AM, Db wrote: > I and a few others herein > may have done a disfavor > to our security as a nation > and or our communities > > by possibly providing > terrorists, hostiles and > criminals with some > facts. > > however, it is my sincere > hope that they believe your > rant. > > another thing that is beyond > your comprehension is that > true professionals do not use > name calling. > > it is said that it would take > 50 monkeys on 50 typewriters > to write 50 pages of "war and > peace" > > but it only took you five years > and your babbling rant > to show us that it would take > you a lot longer than the > chimps. What on earth are you talking about? I asked him a question and he answered it, very thoroughly. He went to the trouble of posting links and quotations and shared his personal experience, he was very specific, and he didn't call anyone any names or resort to an ad hominem attack or any other sort of pettiness. And I have to admit to liking his style: precise, clean, scientific, direct, much more than yours. Your reply wasted a lot of space just to be rude, and incorrect, with no value added. I will remember to avoid reading your posts in future, while I will certainly read his.
From: mscir on 20 Jun 2010 05:34
Larry wrote: > TopPosted Because It Makes Sense In This Case: > > Excellent information, John. Many thanks for taking the time to post > it. > > -- Larry Agreed, very interesting, and it's good enough for me. Mike > > On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:10:15 -0300, John John - MVP > <audetweld(a)nbnot.nb.ca> wrote: > >> Mike S wrote: >>> On 6/18/2010 7:10 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >>>> Mike S wrote: >>>>> On 6/18/2010 4:39 AM, John John - MVP wrote: >>>>>> Mike S wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/17/2010 11:10 AM, Db wrote: >>>>>>>> there are utilities that >>>>>>>> wipe the disk of deleted files. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> however, there are differing >>>>>>>> opinions whether wiping >>>>>>>> deleted files with something >>>>>>>> like military encryption >>>>>>>> is effective against >>>>>>>> hard drive forensics. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> my opinion and a old friend >>>>>>>> who is an m.i.t professor >>>>>>>> is that the only sure way that >>>>>>>> the contents on the disk are >>>>>>>> not retrievable is to toss the >>>>>>>> hard drive into a volcano or >>>>>>>> the middle of ocean in the >>>>>>>> middle of the night. >>>>>>> I saw a show on television that mentioned some very powerful forensic >>>>>>> software that could find the last two (that's right 2) sets of files >>>>>>> on a hdd that had been overwritten. That is you save file A, then you >>>>>>> overwrite it with file B. Then you overwrite that with file C. They >>>>>>> could recover B and A with extremely high rates of accuracy!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But most people do not have access to that software. >>>>>> Most people don't have access to that software because it just plain >>>>>> doesn't exist, it's nothing but BS! >>>>>> >>>>>> John >>>>> And you know this how? >>>> You are the one who made the claim that there is some sort of 'magic' >>>> software available that can recover overwritten files, it is up to you >>>> to substantiate your claim and supply the name of the software and the >>>> company who makes this software. The leading forensic recovery software >>>> (EnCase) cannot do this and none of the major data recovery firms can do >>>> this, just call them and ask them and you will get the same answer from >>>> all of them. This idea that data could be recovered from overwritten >>>> drives was a theory advanced by Dr. Peter Gutmann and he himself has >>>> told me that his theory was misconstrued by many who read his paper, he >>>> was never able to recover overwritten files and he knows of no one who >>>> ever was. >>>> John >>> I claimed that I saw this on a television show, that is true. They did >>> not mention the name of the software. Also the government often has >>> technology that is years ahead of what the public knows about. I have >>> not seen this at work but I now damage platters on drives I don't want >>> people to access anything from, and I advise the same to all of my friends. >>> >>> You also made a claim, that it doesn't exist, so how can you be >>> uncomfortable if someone asks you to back up your claim? >> For a period of about five years, on and off in my spare time, I did a >> lot of searching for this 'Holy Grail' of data recovery! Anytime that >> it would appear that promising information was about to be found it >> always came down to the same thing; quotes from or claims made on the >> basis of Dr, Gutmann's paper or hearsay about conspiracies and >> government secrets! I found out that the one thing in common that any >> who claimed that this was possible have is that none of them could give >> hard evidence or give us the name of anyone or any company who could >> actually do it, classic hallmarks of urban myths! >> >> After countless hours of futile searching for this data recovery Grail I >> decided to ask persons and companies in the know about data recovery, I >> started e-mailing and calling those who I thought would be able to >> provide real answers. I contacted at least 10 different data recovery >> companies, some who make data recovery software and some who run clean >> room data recovery. All of them told me the same thing, they cannot >> recover overwritten data. Quoting from an email from one of the major >> firms: "It is nothing but a theory at best, add secret government >> capabilities and the theory has now entered the realm of urban legends". >> >> The claim that governments have tools to do this is often used to >> bolster the myth but it is interesting to note that in his 2004 paper, >> Recovering Unrecoverable Data - The Need for Drive-Independant Data >> Recovery, Charles H. Sobey wrote: >> >> "It is very telling that the US Department of Defense's Combating >> Terrorism Technology Support Office placed a "Broad Agency >> Announcement" seeking just such a [magic] machine for damaged, erased, >> or overwritten media." >> >> The DoD's request went unanswered, no one took them up on it. In a >> telephone conversation I posed the question about the DoD's request to >> an engineer at Seagate. The engineer chuckled and said that while he >> was not privy to any information about these kind of projects within his >> company he nonetheless felt that to undertake the request would have >> been an exercise in futility. >> >> Finally, after all of the data recovery and hard disk manufacturers that >> I had contacted told me that it was impossible to recover overwritten >> data I decided to ask Dr. Gutmann himself about it. His answers to me >> confirmed the urban myth status of the whole thing. >> >> You can read Charles H. Sobey's paper here: >> >> ActionFront Research >> Recovering Unrecoverable Data - The Need for Drive-Independant Data Recovery >> http://www.actionfront.com/ts_whitepaper.aspx >> >> Dr. Gutmann's paper is available here: >> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html >> >> >> More on the subject in these links: >> >> Data Removal and Erasure from Hard Disk Drives >> http://www.actionfront.com/ts_dataremoval.aspx#Overwriting >> >> Overwritten data: Why even the Secret Service can't get it back >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/5756 >> >> Is overwritten data really unrecoverable? >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/5687 >> >> Can Intelligence Agencies Read Overwritten Data? >> http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html >> >> Researchers Prove Single Pass Overwrite Effective >> https://infosecurity.us/?p=5474 >> >> John |