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From: Rupert on 30 Jun 2006 19:37

Sidhu wrote:
> Thanks Rupert...
>
> the amps being used for their operation were the 'Camco - Vortex6',
> being driven at 4ohms, i would presume (do all drivers within the 850
> cabnit have an 8ohms impedance?)
>
> Levels being mismatched did often cross my mind, and though I was
> unable to myself verify, on inspection (by the workers of the sound
> company) i was thrice, during the gig, assured that all amps were
> running at full power. I have reason enough to trust these boyz, share
> a good repute with them.. but never know....
>
> Sidhu
>
>
>
>
> Rupert wrote:
> > Sidhu wrote:
> > > Hello!
> > >
> > > Recently I had to do a gig involving a setup of EAW KF850zf Tops and
> > > SB1000 subs. 2 of each per side. Stacked on top of each other.
> > > Indoors, reverberant room. The topmost top was included to essentially
> > > get more coverage towards the far end of the room. The two tops, and
> > > the two bins, per side, were each run parrelell.
> > >
> > > They system was run 4 way (sub/low/mid/high) through 2 x XTA 226
> > > Crossovers. I got the crossover settings to match the recomendations
> > > (for the XTA) on the EAW website. The PA sounded very bad. I tried to
> > > Eq it to sound better, but gained only marginal improvement.
> > >
> > > I would have liked to blame the room... but only recently I did two
> > > killer gigs, at the same venue, using the same system. However, the
> > > system was not rigged by me on these two occasions, and was at a
> > > further distance from the stage than the night i goofed it.
> > >
> > > Grateful for any insights.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Sidhu.
> >
> > Are you certain that the amp sensitivities were properly setup for each
> > band pass? In other words, were they setup so that the drivers were
> > putting out equal SPL at a given distance with test signals? The sound
> > of the KF850's can be very unforgiving if the band pass aren't matched.
> > On second thought, that can be true of any speaker. But I digress. The
> > 850z can be a very good sounding box, noticeably better then the
> > previous versions. But if there's a mismatch in driver outputs, you
> > could very well experience the issue you describe.
> >
> > Rupert

I don't doubt that amps were wide open and all. The issue is what are
the amp sensitivities in relation to the driver sensitivities verses
the processor settings. I'm not familiar with the Camco
sensitivity/gain vs. other amps, but it's possible that the 15's were
being driver too hard in relation to the MF and HF horns. It could be
the processor was simply not set correctly to match band pass outputs
to the KF's. Stuff like this is relatively easy to figure out if you
have a FFT based analyzer like SMAART or MacFOH. Even a basic SPL meter
or RTA can come in handy, though it's less then perfect due to room
modes and such. But they're still better then nothing. Basically if you
can measure the output of the different band passes one at time while
running pink noise on a single box, you can get them in the ballpark by
adjusting the outputs on the DSP. This requires relatively close
distance to the measuring device mic so you're not dealing with air
absorption and excessive reflections in a room. Moving the mic around a
bit and averaging is usually necessary. Keep in mind that when you add
boxes together, coupling in the low end will increase overall output.
If you can do it outdoors in an open field, even better. The on axis
reading will usually be correct in that scenario.

The bottom line is that having the amps wide open and not tweaking the
band pass outputs on your processor is generally not going to work
regardless of the manufacturer's recommended processor settings. They
don't know what amps your using or what their relative sensitivities
are, so it's up to the person setting it up to figure it out. I will
say if the outputs and amps were all set the same, it seems more likely
that the HF horns would be overpowering, as they're the most sensitive.
Anyhow...

For the tech specs on the KF850z, here's the link to EAW's ftp site:

ftp://ftp.eaw.com/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/Current_Loudspeakers/

Rupert

From: Sidhu on 30 Jun 2006 19:48
Thanks a ton Rupert! I'll study up on the same.

Regards,
Sidhu


Rupert wrote:
> Sidhu wrote:
> > Thanks Rupert...
> >
> > the amps being used for their operation were the 'Camco - Vortex6',
> > being driven at 4ohms, i would presume (do all drivers within the 850
> > cabnit have an 8ohms impedance?)
> >
> > Levels being mismatched did often cross my mind, and though I was
> > unable to myself verify, on inspection (by the workers of the sound
> > company) i was thrice, during the gig, assured that all amps were
> > running at full power. I have reason enough to trust these boyz, share
> > a good repute with them.. but never know....
> >
> > Sidhu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Rupert wrote:
> > > Sidhu wrote:
> > > > Hello!
> > > >
> > > > Recently I had to do a gig involving a setup of EAW KF850zf Tops and
> > > > SB1000 subs. 2 of each per side. Stacked on top of each other.
> > > > Indoors, reverberant room. The topmost top was included to essentially
> > > > get more coverage towards the far end of the room. The two tops, and
> > > > the two bins, per side, were each run parrelell.
> > > >
> > > > They system was run 4 way (sub/low/mid/high) through 2 x XTA 226
> > > > Crossovers. I got the crossover settings to match the recomendations
> > > > (for the XTA) on the EAW website. The PA sounded very bad. I tried to
> > > > Eq it to sound better, but gained only marginal improvement.
> > > >
> > > > I would have liked to blame the room... but only recently I did two
> > > > killer gigs, at the same venue, using the same system. However, the
> > > > system was not rigged by me on these two occasions, and was at a
> > > > further distance from the stage than the night i goofed it.
> > > >
> > > > Grateful for any insights.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Sidhu.
> > >
> > > Are you certain that the amp sensitivities were properly setup for each
> > > band pass? In other words, were they setup so that the drivers were
> > > putting out equal SPL at a given distance with test signals? The sound
> > > of the KF850's can be very unforgiving if the band pass aren't matched.
> > > On second thought, that can be true of any speaker. But I digress. The
> > > 850z can be a very good sounding box, noticeably better then the
> > > previous versions. But if there's a mismatch in driver outputs, you
> > > could very well experience the issue you describe.
> > >
> > > Rupert
>
> I don't doubt that amps were wide open and all. The issue is what are
> the amp sensitivities in relation to the driver sensitivities verses
> the processor settings. I'm not familiar with the Camco
> sensitivity/gain vs. other amps, but it's possible that the 15's were
> being driver too hard in relation to the MF and HF horns. It could be
> the processor was simply not set correctly to match band pass outputs
> to the KF's. Stuff like this is relatively easy to figure out if you
> have a FFT based analyzer like SMAART or MacFOH. Even a basic SPL meter
> or RTA can come in handy, though it's less then perfect due to room
> modes and such. But they're still better then nothing. Basically if you
> can measure the output of the different band passes one at time while
> running pink noise on a single box, you can get them in the ballpark by
> adjusting the outputs on the DSP. This requires relatively close
> distance to the measuring device mic so you're not dealing with air
> absorption and excessive reflections in a room. Moving the mic around a
> bit and averaging is usually necessary. Keep in mind that when you add
> boxes together, coupling in the low end will increase overall output.
> If you can do it outdoors in an open field, even better. The on axis
> reading will usually be correct in that scenario.
>
> The bottom line is that having the amps wide open and not tweaking the
> band pass outputs on your processor is generally not going to work
> regardless of the manufacturer's recommended processor settings. They
> don't know what amps your using or what their relative sensitivities
> are, so it's up to the person setting it up to figure it out. I will
> say if the outputs and amps were all set the same, it seems more likely
> that the HF horns would be overpowering, as they're the most sensitive.
> Anyhow...
>
> For the tech specs on the KF850z, here's the link to EAW's ftp site:
>
> ftp://ftp.eaw.com/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/Current_Loudspeakers/
>
> Rupert

From: Timo Wildschut on 1 Jul 2006 08:39
Sidhu wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Recently I had to do a gig involving a setup of EAW KF850zf Tops and
> SB1000 subs. 2 of each per side. Stacked on top of each other.
> Indoors, reverberant room. The topmost top was included to essentially
> get more coverage towards the far end of the room. The two tops, and
> the two bins, per side, were each run parrelell.
>
> They system was run 4 way (sub/low/mid/high) through 2 x XTA 226
> Crossovers. I got the crossover settings to match the recomendations
> (for the XTA) on the EAW website. The PA sounded very bad. I tried to
> Eq it to sound better, but gained only marginal improvement.
>
> I would have liked to blame the room... but only recently I did two
> killer gigs, at the same venue, using the same system. However, the
> system was not rigged by me on these two occasions, and was at a
> further distance from the stage than the night i goofed it.
>
> Grateful for any insights.
>
> Regards,
> Sidhu.
>
Hi Sidhu,

Like Rupert said, you might have the sensitivity of the amps mismatched.
Check for (dip) switches to correct it.
Also, iir the KF850 settings include some eq points. Make sure you use
the same parameter type, Q or Bandwith.

http://www.eaw.com/support/processors/kf850z.html directs you to
configuration files for several processors, XTA included.

Timo
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