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From: nospam on 21 Jul 2010 15:15
In article <8aouluFu18U3(a)mid.individual.net>, Thomas T. Veldhouse
<veldy71(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> > just one person's opinion. most people don't find it to be a problem in
> > actual use. those that do can return it.
>
> That wasn't the point you were making a post or two ago ... nice try.

yes it was.
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse on 21 Jul 2010 15:22
In alt.cellular.verizon nospam <nospam(a)nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <8aolilFas6U2(a)mid.individual.net>, Thomas T. Veldhouse
> <veldy71(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >> Or just watch his speech on apple.com and he goes over it in his
>> >> presentation
>> >> from last week. One thing that is not true is that they did indeed know
>> >> about
>> >> the problem for more than 22 days [as of the time of his speech]. I have
>> >> already seen reports [from before the speech] that an engineer [who was
>> >> named,
>> >> although I don't recall it] warned of the issue, but they seem to have
>> >> dismissed it; I guess in favor of aesthetics.
>> >
>> > it was dismissed because it's bullshit. as you can see in the videos,
>> > if you touch a weak spot on *any* phone, reception will drop. if that's
>> > what you call 'knowing' then yes, because *all* phones have that issue,
>> > as the videos you suggest to watch indicate.
>>
>> I suggested one video. But in point of fact, the iPhone 4 antenna is state of
>> the art [it looks like a fractal design which is the way of the future micro
>> antenna designs], but, they use the outer shell for conductance and then put a
>> gap in that shell which placing your finger over it short circuits
>> essentially. That is the real issue. It is not truly an internal antenna
>
> right, it's an external antenna.
>
>> and
>> that is why they are giving away these nice little $30 pieces of poly.
>
> no, it's because of a bunch of whiners.

I would call and complain too if the way I have always held my phone
[especially previous iPhones] suddenly caused a huge reception problem.
Clearly they missed or ignored some real-life testing scenarios.

You do realize that those that do not want the case are not likely to get one
except for a few that probably think they can get some money reselling it. It
isn't just a bunch of whiners or Steve Jobs wouldn't have been forced to do
what he has been doing and indicating that they are looking at alternative
solutions which apparently they are looking at up to this September when they
decide whether to keep giving free poly with the phone. After all, even
though they charge people $30 for them otherwise ... they cost about 50 cents
or so to make (a educated guess here ... but polymer is quite cheap as
everybody knows).


>
>> NO
>> other phone has a "spot" that you can touch with the tip of your finger and
>> cause reception go down, but all phones suffer when gripped.
>
> they all do, and your sentence contradicts itself.

No they don't. They require a grip, a significant RF dampening to occur. The
reason other phones don't have a single spot is that they don't have the
external antenna that the iPhone has. Touching the iPhone "spot" is touching
the antenna itself and it is a very deterimental thing for this type of
antenna. They SHOULD have covered their antenna with a thin layer of clear
plastic perhaps ... something so that the user can't make a direct electrical
contact with their skin. Phones with internal antennas don't suffer single
spot issues for what should be an obvious reason by now.

>
>> Steve Jobs did a
>> good job at slight of hand by failing to point out that just touching that
>> spot clearly scene on the phone's shell will cause a significant signal quaity
>> reduction.
>
> he pointed it out quite clearly. watch it again.

Yes, he pointed to the spot, but all his examples were of people "gripping"
other phones, not "touching" the spot. That spot just so happens to be in a
location that is commonly touched when holding the phone, so depending a bit
on your body chemistry [meaning whether you act as a conductor across that
little gap] and how you hold the phone in any number of scenarios ... you are
FAR more likely to be causing a signal problem on that phone than the others
and it is quite obvious due to the fact that only a single touch is required
to drop signal on the iPhone 4, not a full grip. I bet he couldn't have shown
a slide show of any other phone that you could just touch in one spot and
watch the signal bars drop slowly and then when you quit touching it the
signal bars increase.

Don't get me wrong, I like the iPhone [although I don't own one and will NEVER
EVER use AT&T as things stand today] and I have handled the iPhone 4 and think
it is an awesome device. I own an iPod Touch (Gen 3 64GB) and am very happy
with it (and probably will remain so even after my Droid X arrives :) ).

>
>> > they're free.
>>
>> NOW they are, but that is because they made a mistake in the design of making
>> a single point that just needs to be touched by your skin to cause a
>> significant drop in signal quality. It takes a GRIP on most, if not all other
>> phones.
>
> most people do grip their phones.

Not everybody will necessarily touch that spot while in a weak signal area and
of those, it also takes a certain skin chemistry to make the conduction across
that gap more or less likely [thus the effect of touching it will vary some].

>
>> >> it's no wonder so many people skipped it and thus they touch
>> >> that sweet spot so conveniently placed right where a normal person touches
>> >> the
>> >> phone. They should have listened to that one upstanding engineer [who I am
>> >> sure is now in trouble for going public with it or otherwise leaking it].
>> >
>> > he is not in trouble because that story was fabricated.
>>
>> Since I don't have a link and I don't feel like looking it up, I will take
>> your word that the story is fabricated
>
> no need to look it up. it's in the video *you* linked. like i said,
> watch it again.

I didn't link ANY VIDEO. I simply said go to Apple's website and watch the
video from Steve Jobs. Steve claims 22 days [as of the presentation].

>
>> [but I have a hard time believing that
>> since I work with RF engineers myself and I KNOW they would not have missed it
>> and, no offense to my collegues, but I am pretty sure that Apple's engineers
>> are significantly higher grade than the people I work with [which are pretty
>> damn good].
>
> nothing is perfect. for most people in most conditions, it works
> better. for some people in some conditions it's worse. everyone gets a
> free case or they can return it if that is not enough.

Wow, really? I didn't think we had addressed that point [a number of times].
Thanks for letting me know!

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Religion is a crutch, but that's okay... humanity is a cripple.
From: nospam on 21 Jul 2010 16:08
In article <8aovmrFu18U4(a)mid.individual.net>, Thomas T. Veldhouse
<veldy71(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> >> and
> >> that is why they are giving away these nice little $30 pieces of poly.
> >
> > no, it's because of a bunch of whiners.
>
> I would call and complain too if the way I have always held my phone
> [especially previous iPhones] suddenly caused a huge reception problem.
> Clearly they missed or ignored some real-life testing scenarios.

it happens with every phone. i can make my sprint flip phones drop to 1
bar by holding it normally. the user manual warns not to do that. i can
do it with cheap at&t samsung phones. i can do it with older iphones.

> You do realize that those that do not want the case are not likely to get one
> except for a few that probably think they can get some money reselling it.

nothing wrong with that.

> It isn't just a bunch of whiners or Steve Jobs wouldn't have been forced to do
> what he has been doing and indicating that they are looking at alternative
> solutions which apparently they are looking at up to this September when they
> decide whether to keep giving free poly with the phone. After all, even
> though they charge people $30 for them otherwise ... they cost about 50 cents
> or so to make (a educated guess here ... but polymer is quite cheap as
> everybody knows).

it is a bunch of whiners. most people don't have the problem. 0.55%
calls to applecare and a lower return rate than the older iphone, much
less than the industry average.

> >> NO
> >> other phone has a "spot" that you can touch with the tip of your finger and
> >> cause reception go down, but all phones suffer when gripped.
> >
> > they all do, and your sentence contradicts itself.
>
> No they don't. They require a grip, a significant RF dampening to occur.

a normal grip. ALL phones can do it. there are dozens of videos out
there that show it, even before apple said it wasn't just them. i've
linked some before.

> The
> reason other phones don't have a single spot is that they don't have the
> external antenna that the iPhone has. Touching the iPhone "spot" is touching
> the antenna itself and it is a very deterimental thing for this type of
> antenna.

they may not have a small spot but they have an area which if blocked,
will affect reception.

> They SHOULD have covered their antenna with a thin layer of clear
> plastic perhaps ... something so that the user can't make a direct electrical
> contact with their skin. Phones with internal antennas don't suffer single
> spot issues for what should be an obvious reason by now.

yes they most certainly do.

> >> Steve Jobs did a
> >> good job at slight of hand by failing to point out that just touching that
> >> spot clearly scene on the phone's shell will cause a significant signal
> >> quaity
> >> reduction.
> >
> > he pointed it out quite clearly. watch it again.
>
> Yes, he pointed to the spot, but all his examples were of people "gripping"
> other phones, not "touching" the spot.

nobody is going to hold the iphone only touching that spot. they're
going to grip it like any phone.

> That spot just so happens to be in a
> location that is commonly touched when holding the phone, so depending a bit
> on your body chemistry [meaning whether you act as a conductor across that
> little gap] and how you hold the phone in any number of scenarios ... you are
> FAR more likely to be causing a signal problem on that phone than the others
> and it is quite obvious due to the fact that only a single touch is required
> to drop signal on the iPhone 4, not a full grip.

as it turns out, it's not anywhere near as big of a problem as people
make it out to be. have you ever used an iphone 4?

> I bet he couldn't have shown
> a slide show of any other phone that you could just touch in one spot and
> watch the signal bars drop slowly and then when you quit touching it the
> signal bars increase.

he showed a few videos and there are dozens of others on line.

> Don't get me wrong, I like the iPhone [although I don't own one

as i expected. find someone who does own one and borrow it for a day.

> and will NEVER
> EVER use AT&T as things stand today] and I have handled the iPhone 4 and think
> it is an awesome device.

not for very long, apparently.

> Not everybody will necessarily touch that spot while in a weak signal area and
> of those, it also takes a certain skin chemistry to make the conduction across
> that gap more or less likely [thus the effect of touching it will vary some].

in other words, it's not a problem that affects all that many people.

> >> > he is not in trouble because that story was fabricated.
> >>
> >> Since I don't have a link and I don't feel like looking it up, I will take
> >> your word that the story is fabricated
> >
> > no need to look it up. it's in the video *you* linked. like i said,
> > watch it again.
>
> I didn't link ANY VIDEO. I simply said go to Apple's website and watch the
> video from Steve Jobs.

ok, so you mentioned a video. close enough.

> Steve claims 22 days [as of the presentation].

right.
From: Larry on 21 Jul 2010 23:17
"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88(a)comcast.net> wrote in news:48edncC2FOq-
xdrRnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d(a)giganews.com:

> I just tested my Motorola RAZR V3m. I'm sitting at my computer in a
> room in the second story of my house. I have three, out of a possible
> four bars in my signal strength display. I can touch any part of the
> phone without affecting the signal strength display!
>
> *Some* other handsets may have the problem but clearly it's not "all"!
>
>

Motorola Z6m is the same way. You can wrap BOTH hands around a Z6m, and
the signal level varies not. Motorola magic from REAL radio engineers...
(c;]



--
iPhone 4 is to cellular technology what the Titanic is to cruise ships.

Larry

From: Thomas T. Veldhouse on 22 Jul 2010 11:40
In alt.cellular.verizon nospam <nospam(a)nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <8aovmrFu18U4(a)mid.individual.net>, Thomas T. Veldhouse
> <veldy71(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >> and
>> >> that is why they are giving away these nice little $30 pieces of poly.
>> >
>> > no, it's because of a bunch of whiners.
>>
>> I would call and complain too if the way I have always held my phone
>> [especially previous iPhones] suddenly caused a huge reception problem.
>> Clearly they missed or ignored some real-life testing scenarios.
>
> it happens with every phone. i can make my sprint flip phones drop to 1
> bar by holding it normally. the user manual warns not to do that. i can
> do it with cheap at&t samsung phones. i can do it with older iphones.

But one can make the iPhone 4 drop [in weak signal areas which is the context
of all of these scenarios] by simply touching the spot, not just gripping the
phone. BIG difference.

>
>> You do realize that those that do not want the case are not likely to get one
>> except for a few that probably think they can get some money reselling it.
>
> nothing wrong with that.
>
>> It isn't just a bunch of whiners or Steve Jobs wouldn't have been forced to do
>> what he has been doing and indicating that they are looking at alternative
>> solutions which apparently they are looking at up to this September when they
>> decide whether to keep giving free poly with the phone. After all, even
>> though they charge people $30 for them otherwise ... they cost about 50 cents
>> or so to make (a educated guess here ... but polymer is quite cheap as
>> everybody knows).
>
> it is a bunch of whiners. most people don't have the problem. 0.55%
> calls to applecare and a lower return rate than the older iphone, much
> less than the industry average.

Some may not know the cause of the dropped call and blame it on AT&T as usual
and just suffer through it. That 0.55% is a minimum. I am not saying the
number is high; I am just saying that it is greater than 1 in 200 which is a
lot of calls considering how many millions of phones they sold.

>
>> >> NO
>> >> other phone has a "spot" that you can touch with the tip of your finger and
>> >> cause reception go down, but all phones suffer when gripped.
>> >
>> > they all do, and your sentence contradicts itself.
>>
>> No they don't. They require a grip, a significant RF dampening to occur.
>
> a normal grip. ALL phones can do it. there are dozens of videos out
> there that show it, even before apple said it wasn't just them. i've
> linked some before.

You are intentionally dodging the fact that just touching the antenna gap on
the iPhone in fringe environment is all that is required to start dropping the
signal. Steve Jobs didn't show THAT in his presentation; just how other
phones react when "gripping" the phone. The problem of course is that this
particular spot on the phone is easy to touch accidentally.

>
>> The
>> reason other phones don't have a single spot is that they don't have the
>> external antenna that the iPhone has. Touching the iPhone "spot" is touching
>> the antenna itself and it is a very deterimental thing for this type of
>> antenna.
>
> they may not have a small spot but they have an area which if blocked,
> will affect reception.

Via a "grip", not via a touch. That is a HUGE difference.

>
>> They SHOULD have covered their antenna with a thin layer of clear
>> plastic perhaps ... something so that the user can't make a direct electrical
>> contact with their skin. Phones with internal antennas don't suffer single
>> spot issues for what should be an obvious reason by now.
>
> yes they most certainly do.

OK, let me rephrase since you are being so obtuse. The antenna on any phone
may have a single spot that if touched, will cause a significant signal
reduction, but, since the antenna is internal to the phone and can not be
touched, it is NOT A PROBLEM WITH OTHER PHONES.

>
>> >> Steve Jobs did a
>> >> good job at slight of hand by failing to point out that just touching that
>> >> spot clearly scene on the phone's shell will cause a significant signal
>> >> quaity
>> >> reduction.
>> >
>> > he pointed it out quite clearly. watch it again.
>>
>> Yes, he pointed to the spot, but all his examples were of people "gripping"
>> other phones, not "touching" the spot.
>
> nobody is going to hold the iphone only touching that spot. they're
> going to grip it like any phone.

Obtuse again! Of course not, but in the normal activity of using the phone,
that spot is very easily touched while holding the phone in any number of
ways. Most phones take covering much of the phone with your hand to have any
effect at all; and CDMA phones certainaly suffer less by what I was able to
see ;-) Steve Jobs did demonstrate with phones that use GSM for voice, not
data [the iPhone 4 uses the data network for voice if 3G is available and 3G
is very similar to CDMA technology as opposed to GSM technology].

>
>> That spot just so happens to be in a
>> location that is commonly touched when holding the phone, so depending a bit
>> on your body chemistry [meaning whether you act as a conductor across that
>> little gap] and how you hold the phone in any number of scenarios ... you are
>> FAR more likely to be causing a signal problem on that phone than the others
>> and it is quite obvious due to the fact that only a single touch is required
>> to drop signal on the iPhone 4, not a full grip.
>
> as it turns out, it's not anywhere near as big of a problem as people
> make it out to be. have you ever used an iphone 4?

Yes, I have used the phone. I have seen the drop because I happen to work in
a building where all signals are fringe signal except for Verizon [due to the
cellular frequency and use of CDMA for voice and data]. The guy who owns the
phone does not have a poly "bumper" on it and touching that spot does indeed
drop signal; but he doesn't seem to touch the spot to the point of detriment
most of the time due to the fact that he is normally in a good signal area
[except at work where his phone doesn't really work unless he runs to a window
or outside]. I have seen it in action. Since the Twin Cities area, where I
live, is pretty well covered by AT&T 3G, weak signal is less trouble here than
some places; having said that, my Brother has had all sorts of problems with
3G coverage on his iPhone 3G and is waiting to see what my Droid X is like
before he decides to jump ship to Verizon.


>
> he showed a few videos and there are dozens of others on line.
>
>> Don't get me wrong, I like the iPhone [although I don't own one
>
> as i expected. find someone who does own one and borrow it for a day.

I have already pointed out that I have used the iPhone 4, although not for a
day. I don't know many people that will loan you their smartphone for a day
anyway, do you?

>
>> and will NEVER
>> EVER use AT&T as things stand today] and I have handled the iPhone 4 and think
>> it is an awesome device.
>
> not for very long, apparently.
>
>> Not everybody will necessarily touch that spot while in a weak signal area and
>> of those, it also takes a certain skin chemistry to make the conduction across
>> that gap more or less likely [thus the effect of touching it will vary some].
>
> in other words, it's not a problem that affects all that many people.

It doesn't matter; as Steve Jobs said, he cares about every customer and those
that are affected are likely to deeply resent it; wouldn't you if you got
stuck with it for 2 years or had to go back to your old phone/carrier and give
up an otherwise awesome smart phone?

>
>> >> > he is not in trouble because that story was fabricated.
>> >>
>> >> Since I don't have a link and I don't feel like looking it up, I will take
>> >> your word that the story is fabricated
>> >
>> > no need to look it up. it's in the video *you* linked. like i said,
>> > watch it again.
>>
>> I didn't link ANY VIDEO. I simply said go to Apple's website and watch the
>> video from Steve Jobs.
>
> ok, so you mentioned a video. close enough.

I didn't even mention a video ... I said I haven't seen any other video
besides the video on Apple's website. Get your facts straight.

>
>> Steve claims 22 days [as of the presentation].
>
> right.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Religion is a crutch, but that's okay... humanity is a cripple.
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