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From: Richard Steinfeld on 27 Nov 2009 05:32
Art, I also understand that pigments deliver better image
permanence than dyes do. And that dyes are more forgiving about
print head clogging.

I realize that I've written generalizations, but I'd like to hear
your opinions about this since you've probably worked with a few
different ink formulations on your Epson journey.

Richard
From: Arthur Entlich on 27 Nov 2009 06:42

If you are interested in issues surrounding e-waste,
I invite you to enter the discussion at my blog:

http://e-trashtalk.spaces.live.com/

Adam wrote:
> Thanks VERY much, Art, for such an informative reply!
>
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>> From what I have seen on line, your printer users the 3e cartridges for
>> all 4 colors, which should be pigment colorant based.
>
> Yes, the Canon i550 uses 3e cartridges for everything. (I think some
> Canons use 3e for regular printing and 6e for photos.) I never even
> thought about whether the ink was pigment or dye (it never mattered
> before), and their own website doesn't say. All I can tell from the
> package is that all 4 colors also contain glycerine and diethylene
> glycol, if that means anything. Cyan and magenta also contain isopropyl
> alcohol ("rubbing alcohol") and ethylene glycol.
>

Pretty much all inkjet printer used these solvents and wetting/drying
agents, or very similar formulations. The glycols and glycerin keep the
ink "wet" to help prevent clogging of the head, and allow the fresher
ink to "rewet" the older ink on the head surface, it also keep the ink
from freezing during shipment in color weather.

The isopropyl alcohol works to both speed up drying on the paper, and
reduces surface tension so the ink penetrates the paper surface more easily.

> Elementary question here: if Canon's own ink cartridges for this model
> are pigment based, does that mean all other-brand replacement cartridges
> are also pigment based, or could some be dyes?

No. Rarely will dye ink be replaced by pigment on 3rd party inks,
however, the other way around may occur since pigment ink tends to be
more costly.

>
>> If your black ink is indeed pigment, you may be able to get away with
>> rather inexpensive bond papers. Your budget, of 5 cents or less
>> restricts the choice to mainly uncoated papers. meaning mainly bond like
>> papers, which still may be fine.
>
> One thing I think I forgot to mention in my original post was that I
> don't need gallery-quality results here. This is a mockup of a picture
> book, which I'll use to try to sell the project, so all I need is
> something that /suggests/ quality paper.
>
>> Parchment paper usually costs more than 5 cents a page, but it is
>> usually sturdy and looks good, and will keep a good line with pigment
>> ink.
>
> Okay, I'll buy a small package of that, and see what results I get. The
> brand sold in both local office supply stores (Staples, Office Depot) is
> Southworth, so I emailed them with my question about paper type, but
> haven't gotten a reply yet.

Not familiar with that brand per se, but I'm not familiar with the
brands of parchment paper in general. I have bought several types and
they worked well, even with dye ink printers which usually bleed with
non-specialized papers.

Art


>
>> You may need to do a bit of testing, but generally speaking inkjet
>> printers using pigment colorant inks leave a nice clean sharp line
>
> I'll spend this weekend trying out every kind of paper I already have
> around here, which includes Canon glossy photo paper, and pages from
> sketchbooks cut down to size.
>
>> If you want a very clean look you might try something like the matte
>> finish "photo quality" paper from Epson. This is lighter weight than you
>> suggest and may curl is left to, but it has one side of coatings. It
>> sells for about $0.05 a sheet on sale, but it is only coated on one
>> side, that brighter side is what you print upon.
>
> That sounds like another good possibility. Thanks again for all your
> suggestions and advice!
>
> Adam
>
> P.S. And a very Happy Thanksgiving to anyone in the USA who's reading
> this!
From: Arthur Entlich on 27 Nov 2009 07:11
I wish it were a simple answer.

Yes, pigment inks are almost always more permanent in terms of fading.

What you need to understand about pigment inks is they are made from
solid particles ground very small, but they are still relatively large
compared to dye colorants which are literally molecular in dimension.

Dye inks, are dissolved into the carrier, and they penetrate the paper
surface and get locked in the paper fibre or other substrate.

Pigment inks, with adhesive carriers can literally not adhere to the
paper surface and flake or rub off. They are sharper because they do not
bleed, but if the adhesive qualities of the carrier are poor, while they
are less likely to fade, they may fall off due to physical action to the
surface.

So, permanence is about a number of things, how well the colorant holds
to the paper surface or internally, how limited the UV or other
environmental factors alter the color intensity of the molecules or
particles. How well the carriers maintain neutrality of color or integrity.

The reason dye inks are more forgiving, in general, to clogs is that
they do not require an adhesive carrier, such as a resin, and they are
rarely waterproof, as a result.

In general, dye inks give the purest colors, most transparency and
widest color range. However, with the proper mix of color inks, pigment
inks can get close.

Now, as to clogs. In the Epson ink line up (OEM), based upon my
experience and the number of requests for cleaning documents, from worse
to best I would list them as follows:

Worst to best:

Durabrite Inks (Pigment)
Durabrite Ultra (Pigment)
Ultrachrome Glossy (Pigment)
Standard Dye Inks (dye)
Ultrachrome with K4 inks (Pigment)
Ultrachrome Standard (Pigment)
Claria Ink (hybrid probably dye and pigment mix)


Art

If you are interested in issues surrounding e-waste,
I invite you to enter the discussion at my blog:

http://e-trashtalk.spaces.live.com/

Richard Steinfeld wrote:
> Art, I also understand that pigments deliver better image permanence
> than dyes do. And that dyes are more forgiving about print head clogging.
>
> I realize that I've written generalizations, but I'd like to hear your
> opinions about this since you've probably worked with a few different
> ink formulations on your Epson journey.
>
> Richard
From: Adam on 29 Nov 2009 19:46
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Adam wrote:
>> Yes, the Canon i550 uses 3e cartridges for everything.
[snip]
>> all 4 colors also contain glycerine and diethylene
>> glycol, if that means anything.
>
> Pretty much all inkjet printer used these solvents and wetting/drying
> agents, or very similar formulations.

Oh, okay. I thought that might be a clue as to whether they're pigments
or dyes.

>> I'll spend this weekend trying out every kind of paper I already have
>> around here, which includes Canon glossy photo paper, and pages from
>> sketchbooks cut down to size.

I tried every kind of paper I already had around here, and image quality
didn't vary much. The ones with the best "feel" were paper from
artists' sketchbooks, cut down to size. I'll have to see whether the
local art supply store carries something similar in letter size, but
affordable. Also I'll get a few small packages of various kinds of
paper from an office supply store. And most important, to know when to
stop, as after all this is only a mockup.

I'm also learning a lot from the other messages in this newsgroup,
especially the ones about chips in ink cartridges. Things seem to have
changed a lot since I bought this Canon i550 around 2003!

Adam
From: Adam on 29 Nov 2009 19:46
Joel wrote:
>> Soon I'll be printing some line drawings, and want to use better paper
>
> All you need to do is making up your mind then buy whatever you need.
>
> - If you want brighter then go for the brighter paper like 102-104 Bright
>
> - If you want thicker then go for thicker than 20lb
>
> - If you want some fancy pattern then go for it.
>
> Buy a small pack of RESUME then you should be able to see the difference
> with the standard paper.

Thanks for your suggestions, Joel. You're right, no point agonizing
over this. I think I'll just get some small packages of different kinds
of paper (at both office and art supply stores), then go back and get a
large package of whichever one works best.

Adam
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