correct representation of slower clocks
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From: PD on 31 Jul 2010 14:36 On Jul 29, 6:30 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 26, 7:15 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 24, 2:57 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 24, 7:38 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 22, 11:47 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > According to Galileo's principle of equivalence, if the > > > > > missile were put in orbit around the earth at the altitude of the > > > > > moon, then it would have the same speed in its orbit that the moon has > > > > > in its orbit. If the orbits were opposite in direction, then > > > > > scientists can calculate for themselves what their theory of > > > > > relativity would predict for times on the clock in the nosecone and a > > > > > clock on the moon. The Galilean transformation equations and Newton's > > > > > equations show that a clock on the moon and a clock in the nosecone > > > > > would read the same. > > > > > And indeed, the same would be predicted by relativity in the case you > > > > mention! > > > > > > Both clocks would be slightly slower than a > > > > > clock on earth. > > > > > Which is different than what the Galilean transformations and > > > > Newtonian mechanics predicts. > > > > Newton was in fact quite emphatic that time was absolute and > > > > immutable, regardless of where it is measured. > > > > > What happens to clocks in orbit actually agrees with relativity very > > > > well. > > > > > > So now let us consider a third satellite at the same > > > > > altitude that has an astronaut. > > > > > "Calculate your speed," the astronaut is instructed. The > > > > > astronaut knows his exact altitude. > > > > > How does he know his exact altitude, Robert? > > > > There are a number of ways it could be done. To avoid confusion, maybe > > > we should have scientists on the ground tell him what it is. > > > So, what you are suggesting is that rather than seeing if two > > different observers make actual measurements to see which set of > > transformations are correct, it's better if one observer just tells > > the other observer not to bother measuring at all, and just to take > > his word for it that the Galilean transformations are correct. Ah. > > > > Are you saying that the satellite has a different altitude in the > > > frame of reference of the satellite than is observed from the ground? > > > Yes, of course. > > > > > > From this he knows the exact > > > > > length of his orbit. He times one orbit with the clock in his > > > > > satellite and divides that time into the length of his orbit. Does he > > > > > get a length contraction or does he get a faster speed for his > > > > > satellite than an observer on the ground making the same calculation? > > > > > You cannot make this calculation with Einstein's theory of > > > > > relativity. > > > > > Actually, you can. I'm shocked that you think it can't be done. > > > > OK, make the calculation. How do you get a faster speed for the > > > satellite using the Lorentz equations or General Relativity? They > > > both say v is the same from either frame of reference. > > > No, the Lorentz transforms and general relativity do NOT say v is the > > same from either frame of reference. That would be true for an > > inertial reference frame, but not for a satellite circling the earth. > > > > > > It requires a length contraction and the same speed > > > > > calculated from the satellite as observed from the ground. > > > > > What on earth makes you say THAT, Robert? > > > > v is the same from either frame of reference in Special or General > > > Relativity. > > > No, only for inertial reference frames, Bobby. > > It would help if you would learn what special and general relativity > > actually say. > > They say that velocity is the same from either frame of reference. Who is "they", Robert? Scientists say that v is the same in two INERTIAL frames of reference. The frames of reference for a satellite are not inertial. As I said, it would help if you learn what special and general relativity actually say.
From: PD on 31 Jul 2010 14:39 On Jul 28, 8:39 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 28, 6:28 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 29, 10:51 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 26, 7:11 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 25, 10:40 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 25, 7:44 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >"rbwinn" wrote in message > > > > > > >news:d9d01d61-d162-4090-b2c8-a1528ce45568(a)t5g2000prd.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > Lets see if RB is honest enough to clarify his position here with simple > > > > > > direct answers to a couple of questions. Here's three multiple-choice > > > > > > questions for you RB. > > > > > > > 1) Are the measurements of the length of an object (in general) > > > > > > a) always the same regardless of the motion of the observer measuring it > > > > > > b) smaller if the observer measuring it is in motion wrt the object > > > > > > c) larger if the observer measuring it is in motion wrt the object > > > > > > d) smaller or larger depending on the motion, if the observer measuring > > > > > > it (using his own rulers and clocks) is in motion wrt the object > > > > > > > 2) Are the measurements of the ticking rate of a clock > > > > > > a) always the same regardless of the motion of the observer measuring it > > > > > > b) slower if the observer measuring it is in motion wrt the clock > > > > > > c) faster if the observer measuring it is in motion wrt the clock > > > > > > d) slower or faster depending on the motion, if the observer measuring > > > > > > it is in motion wrt the clock > > > > > > > 3) Are the differences in times shown on a pair of mutually at rest > > > > > > separated clocks (in general) > > > > > > a) always the same regardless of the motion of the observer measuring > > > > > > them > > > > > > b) different if the observer measuring them is in motion wrt the clocks > > > > > > > NOTE: That in the above we assume that observer use their own clocks and > > > > > > rulers, at rest wrt them, for making measurements. > > > > > > > OK .. what are you answers ... no need for any lengthy explanations, or > > > > > > ad-homs about scientists. I just want to know what your position is: > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > Your questions are completely off-topic and irrelevant, but I will > > > > > answer them anyway. > > > > > 1. Measurements of length are the same in different frames of > > > > > reference. That is what the Galilean transformation equations show. > > > > > Equations do not show what the results of measurements are. > > > > Measurements do. Actual measurements. > > > > > > 2. Measurements of the ticking rate of a clock are slower if the clock > > > > > is in motion relative to the frame of reference with the clock that > > > > > shows t in the Galilean transformation equations. > > > > > 3. If two clocks are at rest, they both show the same time regardless > > > > > of the motion of an observer.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Actual measurements. I will have to remember that. What about > > > measurements of rotations of moons of Jupiter? > > > You're nothing but an ignorant trol > > Ignorant troll. I will have to remember that. Well, I have pretty > much decided that I will use the Galilean transformation equations. > You scientists decide for yourselves what you are going to do. I'm not surprised that you would decide this. You come on the group every now and again to say that you think people should be doing A. When you find out that scientists are doing B, something other than A, this confirms in your mind your conviction to do A. By the way, scientists bathe regularly. This may account for your decisions on this matter.
From: rbwinn on 2 Aug 2010 20:00 On Jul 31, 11:34 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 30, 2:32 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 30, 5:24 am, YBM <ybm...(a)nooos.fr.invalid> wrote: > > > > rbwinn a écrit : > > > > > Well, I have decided to use the Galilean transformation equations, > > > > and scientists can do whatever they decide to do. > > > > This is pointless given that you don't consider any real experiments but > > > the fake ones you made up in your ill mind. > > > Well, tell me about a real experiment, YBM. The only ones I know > > about are done by scientists, which makes them suspect. > > And who does experiments that you trust? No scientists that I know about.
From: rbwinn on 2 Aug 2010 20:01 On Jul 31, 11:33 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 30, 2:27 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2:18 pm, "Paul B. Andersen" <some...(a)somewhere.no> wrote: > > > > On 29.07.2010 01:56, rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>> On Jul 22, 11:47 pm, rbwinn<rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> According to Galileo's principle of equivalence, if the > > > >>>>>>> missile were put in orbit around the earth at the altitude of the > > > >>>>>>> moon, then it would have the same speed in its orbit that the moon has > > > >>>>>>> in its orbit. > > > > Close, but not quite. > > > Due to the mass of the Moon the speeds would be slightly different. > > > Objects fall at the same speed only if their masses are negligible > > > compared to the mass of the gravitating body (the Earth). > > > The mass of the Moon isn't negligible. > > > > >>>>>>> If the orbits were opposite in direction, then > > > >>>>>>> scientists can calculate for themselves what their theory of > > > >>>>>>> relativity would predict for times on the clock in > > > >>>>>>> the nose cone and a clock on the moon. > > > > Quite. > > > And here is what they would calculate: > > > > Look at this animation:http://home.c2i.net/pb_andersen/Satellites.html > > > Choose the scenario: "Circ. Moon orbit + Moon orbit". > > > The red satellite is in Moon orbit. > > > The relative rate difference is 6.808E-10 at aphelion > > > and 6.783E-10 at perihelion. > > > The rate varies slightly because of the eccentricity, but it is > > > always _fast_. > > > > Now, look at this animation: > > > (Not quite finished and probably never will be)http://home.c2i.net/pb_andersen/EarthMoon.html > > > Choose the sceneario "High altitude satellite". > > > Ignore the green satellite, we are only interested in > > > the dark grey Moon. > > > The "Moons clock rel. rate difference" is the rate of a clock on > > > the Moon's surface, facing the Earth. > > > It is 6.494E-10 at aphelion and 6.468E-10 at perihelion. > > > > The rate is slightly less than for the satellite clock. That is because > > > of the Moon's gravity; the gravitational potential difference is less > > > for the Moon clock than for the satellite clock. > > > > >>>>>>>The Galilean transformation equations and Newton's > > > >>>>>>> equations show that a clock on the moon and a clock in the nosecone > > > >>>>>>> would read the same. > > > > According to Galilean relativity all clocks run at the same rate. > > > But they don't. > > > So what can we conclude from that fact? > > > > >>>>>>> Both clocks would be slightly slower than a > > > >>>>>>> clock on earth. > > > > Nope. Faster. > > > > [..] > > > > -- > > > Paul > > > >http://home.c2i.net/pb_andersen/ > > > Uh huh. Well, I am certain that scientists of today can convince > > themselves that Einstein's theory explains all things just the way > > Einstein said it did. The trouble I see with what they are doing is > > that they worked the arithmetic wrong. > > It would not matter what experiment shows, scientists of today > > can find a way to make Einstein's theory match the experimental > > results. If you need to make clocks go faster, you can make them go > > faster. If they need to go slower, you can make them go slower. > > Well, this is the problem, Bobby. You say that it does not matter what > experiments show. > To a scientist, this is exactly backwards. Everything depends on what > experiments show. > You cannot "prove" anything with mathematics in science if experiments > say otherwise. > > > Well, I have decided to use the Galilean transformation equations, > > and scientists can do whatever they decide to do. > > Yes, of course you've decided that. No one is stopping you. It's a > wholly unscientific decision to do that, and you will get wrong > answers under some circumstances, but you don't care about that. > > Scientists have good reasons for not taking the path you've chosen. > > PD Scientists have financial reasons for doing what they do. If they can make more money giving out false information, they will give out false information.
From: rbwinn on 2 Aug 2010 20:23
On Jul 31, 12:39 am, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: > "rbwinn" wrote in message > > news:531f91bf-82e6-4697-bfaa-1649844f3915(a)x24g2000pro.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > >On Jul 30, 5:22 am, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: > >> "rbwinn" wrote in message > >> >On Jul 28, 7:24 pm, "whoever" <whoe...(a)whereever.com> wrote: > >> >> "rbwinn" wrote in message > >> >> You're the one not answering the simple question (because you're an > >> >> ignorant > >> >> troll): What is the relationship between what a clocks at rest in one > >> >> frame > >> >> reads compared to that of a clock at rest in some other frame? We know > >> >> it > >> >> is > >> >> not t' = t. > >> >whoever, > >> > I thought I told you once. There is no clock in the moving frame > >> >of reference that shows t'. A clock in S shows t' because t'=t in the > >> >Galilean transformation equations. The time on a clock going at any > >> >other rate has to be converted to t' before it can be used in the > >> >Galilean transformation equations. > > >> Still avoiding the simple questions eh. What is the relationship between > >> what a clocks at rest in one frame reads compared to that of a clock at > >> rest > >> in some other frame? We know it is not t' = t. > > >Well, here are the equations. t is the time on a clock in S, a frame > >of reference at rest. n' is time on a clock in motion. > > > x'=x-vt > > y'=y > > z'=z > > t'=t > > There is no n' there. > > What is the mathematical relationship between what a clock at rest in one > (arbitrary) inertial frame compared to that of a clock at rest in some other > (arbitrary) inertial frame? > > > Scientists show no consistency in the information they > >disseminate. > > Lie > > > One scientist will claim that a moving clock is slower, > > the next will claim that a moving clock is faster. > > Lie > > > What they are > > saying is that n' is not t' because t'=t, the time on a clock in S. > > If you claim t' = t, but t' is NOT the time showing on a correct clock. > Then what is t? And what is the mathematical relationship between what a > clock at rest in one (arbitrary) inertial frame compared to that of a clock > at rest in some other (arbitrary) inertial frame? > > >So in order to use the time on the moving clock, its time has to be > >converted to the time shown by t'=t. Then it can be used in the > >Galilean transformation equations. So from the information scientists > >have given, we can say > > > n'=F(t) > > > Once it is determined what the relationship of n' is to t, then n' > >can be converted to t', and the problem can be solved. > > So .. yet again you fail to answer.... what is the mathematical relationship > between what a clock at rest in one (arbitrary) inertial frame compared to > that of a clock at rest in some other (arbitrary) inertial frame? I did not say anything about any frames of reference except S and S' as they are described by the Galilean transformation equations. x'=x-vt y'=y z'=z t'=t The equations say S is at rest and S' is moving. If you are going to claim that S' can be the frame of reference at rest and S is moving, as Einstein did with his inertial idea, then you will quickly see that it does not agree with what was shown from the other frame of reference. First of all, the clock in S' is slower than the clock in S. That means that it shows a faster speed for S relative to S' than was shown from the clock in S. Second, the laws of physics are not the same in S' the way Einstein's postulate says if the slower clock is used. If a ball is dropped in S', it hits the floor sooner by the clock in S' than by the clock in S. So the acceleration on the ball is more than 32 ft/sec/sec using the S' clock. |